http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2009/T...+GP9+next+week



--
Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Squiddo

Andrew <(E-Mail Removed)> Thu, 7 May 2009 17:57:00
>http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2009/T...+Monza+on+boar
>d+the+GP9+next+week

I see no reason why Bayliss shouldn't be able to ride it at least as
well as Sete Gibernau. And probably quite a bit faster than Canepa or
Guarescchi.

I'm still puzzled by how testing works with the spec tyres. You can buy
Bridgestone track day slicks, but can Ducati (and all the rest) buy
Bridgestone MotoGP slicks so their testing riders can ride all day every
day?

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Medicated Treatment Formula

On May 8, 4:35*pm, Julian Bond <julian_b...@voidstar.com> wrote:
> Andrew <yogig.nospamm.no.s...@hotmail.com> Thu, 7 May 2009 17:57:00
>
> >http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2009/T...+Monza+on+boar
> >d+the+GP9+next+week
>
> I see no reason why Bayliss shouldn't be able to ride it at least as
> well as Sete Gibernau. And probably quite a bit faster than Canepa or
> Guarescchi.
>
> I'm still puzzled by how testing works with the spec tyres. You can buy
> Bridgestone track day slicks, but can Ducati (and all the rest) buy
> Bridgestone MotoGP slicks so their testing riders can ride all day every
> day?
>
> --
> Julian Bond *E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com *M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
> Webmaster: * * * * *http://www.ecademy.com/* * *T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
> Personal WebLog: * *http://www.voidstar.com/* * skype:julian.bond?chat
> * * * * * * * * * * * Medicated Treatment Formula

Maybe they are lining him up to replace a **** poor [as i shouted he
would be] Yank?

PaulpULVITZKA <(E-Mail Removed)> Fri, 8 May 2009 00:43:05
>Maybe they are lining him up to replace a **** poor [as i shouted he
>would be] Yank?

I don't think there's any chance at all of Bayliss racing. Word is his
wife has vetoed it.

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Keep your hands out of the machine while it is operating

Champ
> "Mark N" wrote:
> >If Ducati is looking at it from that angle it's a and act of real
> >desperation. Bayliss didn't get along with the troubled '04 machine,
> >crashing countless times that year and finishing 14th in the championship,
> >and lost his ride at Ducati as a result.So it doesn't seem like he came up
> >with the answers there, although they might not have been listening to him
> >either.
>
> <rummages thru MotoGP results site>
> That might overstate it a little - he got a 3rd and 4th that season,
> which is as good as Capi got on the other Duke. *It's just that Capi
> was a lot more consistent. *And the previous year he was 6th, only 2
> points behind Hayden.

No question he had a very good first year, I think really all the new
SB guys did that year (especially relative to the one 250 guy,
Melandri). But how many times did he crash out of races n '04 when the
chassis went south, like five? My take is at the heart of things we're
talking about another chassis issue here, and will he be any more
successful in diagnosing this one?

> >Now he's been out of racing for six months or so and has never been
> >on an 800, never dealt with the tricky contemporary electronics on the
> >thing.
>
> This is all true, of course. *But who else are Ducati going to call?
>
> You need someone who can ride at a GP pace - that immediately limits
> you to a few dozen riders. *And they need to be able to cope with
> modern electronics. *And be used to the latest generation
> Bridgestones. *It seems to me that anyone who might be able to throw
> some useful light on the bike is already riding in MotoGP. *Except
> perhaps Hopkins...

Again, it's not a rider problem, it's a machine problem. So who they
should be looking for are some good engineers and chassis ideas. If
they are depending on rider input to solve the problem at this point,
they are in an almost hopeless situation.

> >Btw, here's a quote from Nicky in CN this week on that pile: "I just don't
> >have the feeling and if I try to push harder, I go off line, or run intothe
> >dirt. It's hard to find a direction I like. WE find stuff that makes it a
> >little bit better, but something else gets worse. The bike is really stable
> >under brakes and in straight-line acceleration, but that's pretty much all
> >there is.{On the elctronics] At full lean, to me, it feels there is not
> >enough control, but when you pick the bike up, there is too much. Peoplesay
> >the electronics make it hard to crash, but I'm not sure how that theory fits
> >in."
>
> If Nicky is talking about the bike like this in public already, then
> I'd say he's in big trouble.

Yeah, he's usually a very circumspect guy and a team player. What it
says to me is he feels he's not getting the support he needs. That may
be that he thinks the chassis needs real changes and they're not
forthcoming, or he doesn't have the programmers who can make the thing
rideable for him.

If things keep going the way they have been, I wonder when Ducati will
put the Marco Muzzle on him?

Mark N <(E-Mail Removed)> Fri, 8 May 2009 10:39:03
>Again, it's not a rider problem, it's a machine problem. So who they
>should be looking for are some good engineers and chassis ideas. If
>they are depending on rider input to solve the problem at this point,
>they are in an almost hopeless situation.

Except that the focus will all be on the guy challenging for the
championship. As long as Casey is winning races and getting podiums,
will anyone believe there's a problem?

>Yeah, he's usually a very circumspect guy and a team player. What it
>says to me is he feels he's not getting the support he needs. That may
>be that he thinks the chassis needs real changes and they're not
>forthcoming, or he doesn't have the programmers who can make the thing
>rideable for him.

I think Hayden is a thinking rider who wants to fix the machine. And it
wouldn't surprise me if he can't get the right Italians to pay the right
attention. And I wonder if there's a connection between Ducati and
people like Fogarty, Bayliss, Stoner and to an only slightly lesser
extent Capirossi who like, and liked, to dominate a machine.

I think there's something really quite strange about Stoner's riding
style. He climbs all over the machine. He's good at the 250 style late
breaking and trail braking into near the apex. Then as he comes off the
brakes he absolutely slams the machine down onto his knee and then
almost immediately wrenches it up again. Then when the bike is still
leant over quite a way he's hard on the gas with the bike bucking and
weaving. Watch him from behind and there's 3 definite stages to each
corner. Trail braking and acceleration at 35-40 degs and a short period
in the middle at 55 deg with very abrupt transitions between each stage.
This isn't classic 250 style. But it's not classic superbike style
either.

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Keep your hands out of the machine while it is operating

On May 9, 1:41*am, Champ <n...@champ.org.uk> wrote:

*It seems to me that anyone who might be able to throw
> some useful light on the bike is already riding in MotoGP. *Except
> perhaps Hopkins...

2 options i can see

1/Yes, Bayliss can ride it, and perfectly, you have the skill or not,
note how well Rossi [God] did 1st year on the "unrideable" Yamaha,

2/Give the ride to WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN Stoners team mate all along,
the 250 king Marco Simoncelli, that guy is good, REALLY good!

I believe he will be on it next year anyway!

Nicky was alway a average rider, how he *beat* Rossi a few years ago
one can still not believe, i think USA can make good riders just Nicky
is not one of them, find of the year would have to be Spies?

Team!

Mark N asks:

> I guess my question is, does anyone who doesn't have an ulterior motive
> (Ducati lover, Stoner fanboy, Hayden hater, etc.) NOT think there's a
> problem at this point?

Yep. Hayden 1.5 seconds behind Stoner in qualifying last week in
Jerez. Sykes 1.3 seconds behind Spies today at Monza. In both
cases, rider (Hayden and Sykes) and crew not getting the job done
as well as their team mate (Spies and Stoner)..

Problem is not the bike, at least not as long as somebody has
figured out how to win races and championships on it. Might
not be the best bike out there but the combo is. Saying it's the
bike's fault when Stoner's team mate can't make it work is
lame. It works - there's proof. If others can't make it work,
the problem is with them.

I'm surprised Hayden hasn't done better. I hope he and
the Italians can figure out how to make it work for him.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

Mark N <(E-Mail Removed)> Sat, 9 May 2009 12:29:55
>I guess my question is, does anyone who doesn't have an ulterior motive
>(Ducati lover, Stoner fanboy, Hayden hater, etc.) NOT think there's a
>problem at this point? That position makes little sense unless you believe
>getting on a Ducati suddenly reuces rider talent 90% of the time or
>something. Or that Ducati doesn't do jack **** for anyone but their #1 guy,
>although that doesn't really explain the Loris and Marco problems the last
>couple years.

I wasn't trying to get at the fans attitude but at the factory's
attitude. I'm sure they'd like to have a solid #2 and a solid satellite
team. But at the same time they've won a championship and come close to
winning a second. As long as Stoner keeps on running at the front, the
fact that #2 can't do the same is unfortunate but not a disaster.

>> I think Hayden is a thinking rider who wants to fix the machine. And it
>> wouldn't surprise me if he can't get the right Italians to pay the right
>> attention. And I wonder if there's a connection between Ducati and people
>> like Fogarty, Bayliss, Stoner and to an only slightly lesser extent
>> Capirossi who like, and liked, to dominate a machine.
>
>Sounds like you're really reaching there, Julian.

I think this is inherent in Ducatis. Ride them slowly and they're
horrible. Dominate it, throw it around, abuse it and it will reward you
by asking for more. In racing, a lot of the guys who've been successful
on Ducatis have had an aggressive, all action style. But then there's
probably plenty of examples of smooth riders being successful as well.
Corser, Kocinski, Reynolds, Lavilla come to mind.

>To me the bottom line now appears to be that the Ducati has the known
>strength - staright-line acceleration and speed - but has fundamental
>chassis problems. That makes sense, since the chassis has always been the
>prime Ducati weakness in MotoGP, the source of their 2004 disaster, and the
>move away from the chromoly spaceframe to carbon is an admission of that.

What? How is an ex-F1 designer looking for a big leap forward and a
whole new way of manufacturing street bikes an admission of problems
with the previous design?

>The other perceived strength is the electronics package, but that makes me
>wonder if that is really a kludge, a way to paper over this chassis problem.
>If so, a rider's success would be entirely dependent on the quality of that
>programming and their ability to adapt to the compromised results. It seems
>Stoner was a bit of a natural at that (has your observed Stoner riding style
>always been there, was he doing that in '06 and '07?), maybe Kallio is to
>some extent, but pretty much no one else has been. So unless Ducati can fix
>the chassis so that rider aid becomes less necessary, or adapt the
>electronics to other riding styles, it would appear they will continue to
>have chronic problems.

I think the problems are all much more human than that. The Italians
have a reputation for being extremely focussed and passionate when
things are going well, and throwing expresso driven fits when they go
badly. Ducati's race shop is a small team with a small number of
talented people. They have to focus on the bike/rider that's getting
results. If the #2 is back in 15th, how is he going to get Filippo
Preziosi's attention? Then there's Hayden's development style. If he
can't do huge numbers of testing laps, and practice is cut, how's he
going to make his development style work?

In a similar vein, What happened with Yamaha at Jerez? Rossi-Burgess
made huge changes sunday night and Lorenzo didn't. Rossi won the race,
Lorenzo suffered all the problems Rossi had on Sat afternoon. These
things are fickle, not just the Ducatis and finding that last 1sec via
setup can be extremely hard.

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Long Vehicle

> I think this is inherent in Ducatis. Ride them slowly and they're
> horrible. Dominate it, throw it around, abuse it and it will reward you
> by asking for more. In racing, a lot of the guys who've been successful
> on Ducatis have had an aggressive, all action style

You may have a point there. I own a street Ducati and it steers more
akin to a race 125 than a 900. If you don't go into corners fast
enough it oversteers badly. I can't see Hayden lasting if all he will
do is mumble about what appears to be basic handling trim - for
example; Pedrosa never rated his potential for development. A bike
that runs off line into corners and is only OK for accelerating or
braking probably needs some suspension adjustment not Team adjustment
and if Hayden doesn't stop blaming others then Ducati will make a
rider adjustment. They have got one rider who will lead a race when
the other will be last after the second lap. Its not going to last.