On Mon, 4 May 2009 07:23:28 -0700, "Mark N"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Here are some numbers on the Jerez races and the Ducatis:
>
>Last year Stoner finished 11th after a couple of off-track excursions, but
>had a fast lap of only 1:41.39 after rejoining the first time, while
>Melandri's best was a 41.74 on the way to 12th. This year Stoner did a
>39.86, while Hayden's best was a 42.04 (the only rider not to do at least a
>41) on the way to 15th. Last year's best lease Ducati was Elias in 15th and
>his best lap was a 42.52; this year it was Gibernau, in 11th with a best lap
>at 41.46.
>
>Last year Hayden did a 40.67 on the way to 4th; fast lap was by teammate and
>winner Pedrosa, a 40.12. This year Melandri did a 40.93 on the 5th-place
>Dornasaki. And Capirossi, who finished 12th and did a fast lap of 41.88 on
>the '07 Ducati, did a 40.40 on the Suzuki last year on the way to 5th, and
>this year did a 40.78 on the way to 6th. In '07 Hayden finished 7th on the
>original Danibike with a best of 41.44, and Melandri was right behind in 8th
>on the Bridgestone-shod lease Honda, but with a best lap of 41.30. [Btw, the
>race fast lap did improve by a full second over this period, 40.9 to 39.9.]

Unfortunately, comparing last years times with this year isn't very
useful, because the track was completely re-surfaced over the winter.
After the pre-season test, most team estimated that it was around a
second a lap faster.
--
Champ

On Mon, 4 May 2009 22:56:38 -0700, "Mark N"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>"Champ" wrote

>> Unfortunately, comparing last years times with this year isn't very
>> useful, because the track was completely re-surfaced over the winter.
>> After the pre-season test, most team estimated that it was around a
>> second a lap faster.

>Yeah, well, Rossi's race fast lap was only 0.37 faster than his 2nd-quick
>last year, Pedrosa's fast lap last year was only 0.28 slower than his
>2nd-quick this year, and Lorenzo's 4th quick was 0.41 faster than his
>4th-quick last year. In other words, fairly normal advancement, and nothing
>that would disqualify what I was saying.

Except a completely new surface throws another factor into any
differences. Some riders/bikes would have been able to make use of
any extra grip, others wouldn't.

>So it's only not useful if you have no use for what it shows...

Are you really unable to discuss anything here without a barbed
comment? For the record, I completely agree with you that the Ducati
is a terrible bike for everyone except Stoner.

Now - tell me what you think of Melandri / Hayate this season?

--
Champ

Champ wrote:
> "Mark N" wrote:
> >"Champ" wrote
> >> Unfortunately, comparing last years times with this year isn't very
> >> useful, because the track was completely re-surfaced over the winter.
> >> After the pre-season test, most team estimated that it was around a
> >> second a lap faster.

> >Yeah, well, Rossi's race fast lap was only 0.37 faster than his 2nd-quick
> >last year, Pedrosa's fast lap last year was only 0.28 slower than his
> >2nd-quick this year, and Lorenzo's 4th quick was 0.41 faster than his
> >4th-quick last year. In other words, fairly normal advancement, and nothing
> >that would disqualify what I was saying.
>
> Except a completely new surface throws another factor into any
> differences. *Some riders/bikes would have been able to make use of
> any extra grip, others wouldn't.
>
> >So it's only not useful if you have no use for what it shows...

> Are you really unable to discuss anything here without a barbed
> comment? *For the record, I completely agree with you that the Ducati
> is a terrible bike for everyone except Stoner.

Well, you're the one who made what I think is a completely fallacious
claim there, that comparing lap times of the various riders isn't
useful. And you cited a lap time difference that isn't supported by
what actually happened in the race at all. I would think that if one
is to claim that the resurfaced track is worth a second a lap you's
actually see if that worked out to be true. And then you'd see the
race fast lap only improved by 0.30 second - while last year the race
fast lap improved over '07 by 0.79 second. Furthermore, your claim
seemed to be dismissive of the point I was trying to make, an attempt
at undermining it. So do you think that wasn't a reasonably fair
reaction?

> Now - tell me what you think of Melandri / Hayate this season?

It's nice to see them getting decent results, and I hope this helps
convince Kawi that it's worth staying in GP. I'm not surprised by
Marco doing well, I don't believe last year was reflective of his
abilities at all. I do think the improvement is the result of finally
finding a solution to the chassis/traction problem that plagued them
last year, and otherwise the Kawi had shown a lot of promise under
lesser riders back in '07. I don't buy the notion floating around that
this solution arose out of the break with the factory, I think it's
something that would have happened even if Kawi had stayed the course.
Mostly I wonder what might be happening had Marco and Hopper had full
support of the factory this year. But I don't overrate what Marco is
doing, he still finished 33 seconds behind Rossi on Sunday, and he
still isn't competitive with the five "haves" in that paddock that I
think will dominate this year - Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa, Lorenzo,
Dovizioso. Although unlikely (as much because of rain as anything),
they may take every podium spot all year. If you look at the fast laps
posted the last two rounds you really see the speed differencial. And
even in Qatar Edwards barely edged out injured Pedrosa in this aspect.
Beyond that you have the lease teams, the Suzukis and struggling
Nicky. So Marco beat them all, plus moved up because Whore-Gay crashed
and Dovi went farming. It's about as good as he can do, unfortunately.

on another note - what about bradley smith? it was such a long time
coming... he is a great talent, i hope this helps ground him and
become a steadier rider.

furthermore, on bikes and issues and tirnes... it seems we are at a
crucial new crossroads in motorcycle engineering that is not even
remotely only electronics related. the discussion on lateral srigidity
of a bike chassis has been going on *forever*, but it seems to have
reached another level right now. i wonder if it is always related to
some plateau tire technology hits, but we seem to get there again
regulalry, and that after optimizing for sheeer rigitdity chassis
engineers rediscover a certain judicious and optimized amount of flex
is best... and the reasons why sound like a bit of snake oil every
time... but there has to be validity to it, of course. it's a bit like
tire development moves on until it overwhelms the chassis, and then
chassis development reacts with optimized lateral "suspension" until
the next tire innovation -which calls for additional stiffness- comes
along.

Champ <(E-Mail Removed)> Wed, 6 May 2009 09:00:31
>>I don't buy the notion floating around that
>>this solution arose out of the break with the factory, I think it's
>>something that would have happened even if Kawi had stayed the course.
>
>I'd not heard that line, and I don't buy it either.

Isn't it possible that it's the underdog factor. A team and rider who
are very highly motivated to make a point using equipment that shouldn't
be successful.

Mostly, though it's faster because it's black.

--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
Makes 6-8 Sandwiches

On Wed, 6 May 2009 10:12:18 +0100, Julian Bond
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Champ <(E-Mail Removed)> Wed, 6 May 2009 09:00:31
>>>I don't buy the notion floating around that
>>>this solution arose out of the break with the factory, I think it's
>>>something that would have happened even if Kawi had stayed the course.
>>
>>I'd not heard that line, and I don't buy it either.
>
>Isn't it possible that it's the underdog factor. A team and rider who
>are very highly motivated to make a point using equipment that shouldn't
>be successful.

That can certainly be an element of it.

>Mostly, though it's faster because it's black.

heh.
--
Champ