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Roberts Jr. on Electronics and motogp

 
 
Julian Bond
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      09-02-2010, 06:50 AM
Mark N <(E-Mail Removed)> Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:19:23
>That has to be a rule intended to keep 800s competitive with the 1000
>prototypes, and perhaps to make the CRTs potentially competitive. What
>I am talking about is what they can do with the rules to make for
>better racing even with no limitations put on electronics. I think part
>of the reason racing basically sucks these days is the 800cc capacity
>and the 21-liter fuel limitation, and not just the advancement in
>electronics.


I have suggested this to people who know about these things. The reply
was that if the limit was 24L, they'd find ways of using the extra and
still pushing the boundaries to the point where electronics were needed
to manage the fuel consumption. We'd be right back where we were, just
with more powerful engines. It wouldn't make the racing any better, just
faster.

It does seem that whatever gets suggested has unintended consequences.
Rules designed to cut costs actually increase costs. Rules designed to
improve the racing make the racing worse. It's enough to make you think
they should stop trying, throw most of the rules away and go back to the
sort of rulebook we had 30 years ago. 1000cc, 6 gears, 150Kg, the end,
(Honda Wins). The alternative seems to be a spec championship based on
production engines with nothing that actually works in between.

As we get closer to the CRT scheme, the ugly spectre of WCM keeps
appearing. It's interesting to speculate about how fast a Yamaha M1
style bike with it's carbon brakes and prototype Ohlins but with an
unlimited tune and unlimited electronics BMW engine would be. There are
rumours that this is being built. There also rumours that WSB won't let
it race unless the engine is entirely re-made using the same reasoning
as when they stopped the WCM.

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Julian Bond
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      09-02-2010, 07:02 AM
Mark N <(E-Mail Removed)> Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:19:23
>Of course I also think it has to do with the riders who provide the
>primary developmental input, guys who for the most part are very young,
>small, have never raced anything but 125 and 250 two strokes, and whose
>racing career includes maybe 25 racetracks in total. Are these really
>the guys we should look to for answers, guys who have popped out of
>Alberto Puig's butt like so many turds? I don't think so.


Whatever, we've been having that argument for 10 years at least.

But now the career progression is changing. 250 4s, Moto2. And Moto2 is
not necessarily the last step before MotoGP. Spies, Crutchlow are not
Puig protoges.

Then you look at Moto2 and it's Elias, Iannone, Luthi, Simon, Corsi at
the front. Go over to WSB and it's Biaggi, Haslam at the front and
Laverty a contender in WSS. Out of every name there, Spies is the single
exception. All the others are short, lightweight guys.

So what is it you hate about Captain Darling[1]?

[1]Google image search. Puig is the spitting image of Captain Darling
from Blackadder.

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Julian Bond
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      09-03-2010, 06:35 AM
Mark N <(E-Mail Removed)> Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:31:04
>1000s will also allow for a greater variety of cornering approaches,
>and riding approaches in general. There was a huge change in the racing
>going from '06 to '07, and it wasn't just because of some random
>technology leap, it was because of rule changes.


Another take on this.
http://pbmagforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21235&st=60

-----
The Bridgestone front tire. Unbelievable amounts of grip and predictable
all the way until it lets go. It turned MotoGP into a corner speed
sport.

I would also add that the TC everyone complains about (the banging and
popping off the corners) is the least significant element in the change
of styles that we have seen. Slipper clutches and the complex
electronics which keep the wheels in line on corner entry has been far,
far more important. Put the extremely complex slipper clutches and the
Bridgestone front tire together and you get a single recipe for speed:
Fast entry, fast mid-corner, carrying speed into the exit.
-----

If that's true, then it's still going to be true with 2012 1000s.

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Julian Bond
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      09-12-2010, 08:53 AM
Mark N <(E-Mail Removed)> Sat, 11 Sep 2010 19:50:23
>Revisionist history, I think. In '07 and '08 Michelin was still winning
>races, and much of their problem was arriving at the track with a
>broad-range tire which could work under varying or unpredicted
>conditions. The Bridgestone front may have been superior overall, but
>that still marginally. And the style of racing hasn't changed in some
>marked way since '08.


It kind of goes like this. The Ducati engine configuration means it's
naturally rear weight biased. They can't move the engine any further
forwards because the lower cylinders hit the front tyre. Bridgestone
develop a set of tyres to work with this. The front is super sticky to
work with the lower load. The rear needs the rearwards weight transfer
to get heat into it and work properly. Yamaha and Rossi switch to these
tyres. They have to mirror the Ducati frame setup to make them work. So
they progressively move the forks forwards takeing weight off the front
and raise and shorten the bike to get the rearwards weight transfer.
Because the Ducati worked the tyres best with quite a high CoG and lots
of weight transfer to get heat into the tyres, Yamaha mirrors this.
Stoner is off for a while and Rossi pushes development. Bridgestone then
start to develop a compromise tyre that is somewhere between what Ducati
and Yamaha want. This forms the basis for the control tyre. For whatever
reason, Honda don't get quite so radical with chassis setup as
Yamaha/Ducati and Pedrosa's lighter weight makes it harder to get the
weight transfer the tyres are designed to work with.

Then we switch to control tyres and Bridgestone base it on this
compromise modified to be a little less radical so it more or less works
for everyone at most tracks. It's actually Ducati who suffer most from
this because the tyre design has moved away from what they need to what
everybody else needs. The front tyre no longer works so well with their
more rearwards CoG. Stoner can't just chuck the front in and rely on the
front tyre to just stick. IMHO, he hasn't been able to alter his style
by the fractions needed to work with the current tyre so what he gets is
a series of front end crashes.

>Or is this something of a mirage, created by their fresher engines, a
>play-it-safe Lorenzo, a suddenly-human Rossi, a handicapped Spies, etc.?


I think something has changed at Honda. It seems it was them who pushed
for the engine rule because it gave them an edge as a motor company.
That fresh impetus and hope has also made them a bit more open to
actually trying to get the chassis right. Put all that together with
Dani's temperament which is to be stunningly fast when everything is
exactly right and it all finally comes together. For the reasons you
give along with some others, everybody else is suddenly racing for
second. You can add in Dovi who's a 10th slower than Pedrosa, Stoner
who's lost his way and the other 10 non-aliens who either don't have the
last 10th or are manipulated into not having the machinery.

It's entirely possible that Dani now wins every race left but it won't
actually be enough. If they'd just hit form 2 or 3 races earlier or he
hadn't fallen off at Laguna this might have been his year. I know the
racing has been god awful boring this year, but I'm really looking
forwards to the last 3-4 races. It's all more of a technical chess game
than a proper man's sport but it's going to be fascinating seeing if
Yamaha-Lorenzo or Honda-Pedrosa can keep it together long enough. The
big fly in the ointment is if Lorenzo's pit lane start comes at exactly
the wrong time, or if Pedrosa's 5th and 6th engine are one race wonders.

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Nick Knowles
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      10-12-2010, 10:20 AM
On 1 Sep, 09:05, Champ <n...@champ.org.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Sep 2010 08:28:03 +0100, Julian Bond
>
> <julian_b...@voidstar.com> wrote:
> >[1]Here's a question for you. Will Rossi ever winanother race?

>
> You know what - I think there's a real possibility that he won't


Thankyou, Nostradamus.
 
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Switters
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      10-14-2010, 09:19 AM
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:04:13 GMT, Champ wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 03:20:36 -0700 (PDT), Nick Knowles
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>On 1 Sep, 09:05, Champ <n...@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 Sep 2010 08:28:03 +0100, Julian Bond

>
>>> >[1]Here's a question for you. Will Rossi ever winanother race?

>
>>> You know what - I think there's a real possibility that he won't

>
>>Thankyou, Nostradamus.

>
> ha!
>
> I'm happy to have been proved wrong :-)


And what a race that was!
 
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