On Jun 9, 10:28*pm, "Steve Lusardi" <stevenos...@lusardi.de> wrote:
> Never use nitrogen in motorcycle tires.....ever. This is critical. Tire heat is essential for maximum traction. Bike tires filled
> with nitrogen stay too cold.

That depends on whether you're riding the street or on the race track.

The tire companies send trucks full of race tires to the club races at
Willow Springs and they will inflate the fast guys' tires with
nitrogen and the novices' tires with air.

I've gotten race compound tires hot enough to make the rubber melt and
ball up on Willow and I wasn't going that fast.

> I have followed this thread and like most of you, have found some of the statements made by the
> originator a bit short of credible. First, unless this fellow weighs 400 lbs, the suspension won't bottom out on any setting.

Well, you are *wrong*.

I weigh 250 pounds (the equivalent of two S'mees).

You also don't know what my rear spring rate is, or what Yamaha
believes is the typical weight for a rider or a passenger.

I'm guessing that Yamaha thinks that the typical weight for each is
180~190 pounds, because the rear spring is rated at 386 pounds per
inch.

But the swing arm has a mechanical advantage of about 3:1 on that
spring, so
the effective rate (without considering the rising rate effect of the
linkage lever) is 386/3=129 pounds/inch.

The rear axle moves through an arc of 130mm (5.122 inches).

Adjusting the laden rear suspension to the maximum recommended sag
of 40% with me aboard leaves me with 2.05 inches of wheel travel, so
the spring should be adequate to support 258 pounds at slow cruising
speed.

There is also a rubber bump stopper on the shock absorber shaft to
keep the mechanical parts from banging against each other.

I don't know what the free length of the spring is in order to figure
out how much initial preload is on the spring, but the range of
preload adjustment is 10 millimeters.

The rear spring is now preloaded to 3 millimeters.

> Setting up a suspension preload is stupid simple. Most of the readers here know how to do
> this, so I won't bore the readers with these directions. They can be found all over the net and in his owner's handbook.

No, setting sag is *not* stupid simple. Sport riders wouldn't know how
to begin setting sag if the magazine guys didn't write articles
telling them how to do it.

I followed manufacturer's recommendations and I followed the
instructions for setting static sag and race sag that were published
in Sport Rider.

At 30% loaded sag and the owners manual recommended tire pressure of
38 pounds, the result was a motorcycle that was so rigid it made my
eyeballs jiggle on the freeway and I couldn't focus on the road ahead.

So I started gradually reducing front and rear preload and increasing
sag.

> I suggest he owns the wrong bike. Sportbikes are not mile eaters. They are performance machines. if
> he wants a mile eater, he should buy one.

I must disagree. Remember that it was the Egomanical Tim Morrow that
introduced "mile eater" to this discussion, not me.

But...

The FZR1000 was described in the magazines as a "sport tourer with the
focus on sport," and later as a "power bike," similar to Kawasaki
ZX11's, ZX12's, etc.

One 1990's Los Angeles-based magazine article described the FZR1000 as
the sportbike you would want to be on, if you just had to be in Denver
in the morning and you didn't want to fly.

The FZR1000 was the Hayabusa of its period, with lots of straight line
power, but not so nimble in the twisties.

Nothing could stay with an FZR1000 when it came onto the power band
above 8000 RPM.

Up until the CBR900RR was introduced, the FZR1000 was the standard by
which all other sportbikes were judged.

All comparision tests between multiple models of big bore sportbikes
always included an FZR1000 in the 1990's.

However, one important piece of information that you may have missed
is my description of the poorly paved county road that is so rough it
influenced my decision to reduce suspension preload and tire pressure
for comfort.

This mountain road has been in existance since the 1820's, when
explorers like Jedediah Smith and Kit Carson used it to avoid
travelling through the swamp in the middle of California. General John
Fremont moved his army troops along this road on the way to Sacramento
during the Mexican War.

Stagecoaches followed this road to deliver the mail to Sacramento and
San Francisco during the gold rush.

I don't know when it was paved, or the last time it was repaved, but
it's full of potholes and patches and ripples and it gets used by
gravel trucks and it goes past my house.

My other choices are to ride an equally rough county road through the
grape vineyards and battle pickup trucks driven by Mexicans who can't
understand why I'm going so slow, or to play tag with the 18-wheelers
on the state highway and get tossed around by their wake.

Of course....the thread is street operation....not the track. On the street, nitrogen filled tires never get warm enough.
Steve

"Vito" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:4c110011$0$4869$(E-Mail Removed) g.com...
>? wrote:
>> On Jun 9, 10:28 pm, "Steve Lusardi" <stevenos...@lusardi.de> wrote:
>>> Never use nitrogen in motorcycle tires.....ever. This is critical.
>>> Tire heat is essential for maximum traction. Bike tires filled with
>>> nitrogen stay too cold.
>>
>> That depends on whether you're riding the street or on the race track.
>> .......
>
> For sure. Racing tires are designed to have max stick in a certain temp
> range. One gets that temp by adjusting air pressure: down = hotter, up =
> colder. This is the same whether one uses Nitrogen or dry air - which is
> mostly Nitrogen.
>
> It is important to keep the pressure/temp relationship linear (don't ask me
> ask the tire engineers). Air, especially from a compressor, contains water.
> At racing speeds the tires get hot enough to turn it to steam, causing a
> nonlinear pressure increase, especially on cages where tires run hotter.
> Bottled Nitrogen is cheap and readilly available and, most important, dry so
> racers have been using it since at least the early 60s that I know of. One
> buys a bottle, sets the regulator to the desired tire pressure, and you're
> good to go without lugging a compressor or finding a place to plug it in.
> I'm told that the dryness prevents wheel corrosion but that seems iffy.
> Other than that ...???
>
>

On Jun 10, 8:42*am, "?" <breoganmacbr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
SNIP
> I weigh 250 pounds (the equivalent of two S'mees).

wrong again lying pedo. 8^) I'm a light weight 190# 15-20% body fat
AND I've got better cardio than the average.

Oh by the way after trimming all your bullshit and unattributed cut
and pasting the only thing left was you once again talking about
things you know nothing of and your betters (pretty much everyone on
reeky, tx.motorcycles and AMS)

I suggest you take that lying ass of yours out to the bay and drown
your self.

3-7-77

What do you mean I'm wrong. You start a tread with a question. You then reject all suggestions. What's wrong with this picture?
Your bike is sprung to support two average weight riders of say 180 lbs. You weigh 250. Set up correctly it will not bottom
out...... period. End of discussion. Yamaha is not stupid. You stated that properly set up, the ride is too harsh....that's
subjective. It is your assessment. I can't argue with that...against that I stated, you then have the wrong machine....that's not
subjective. That conclusion cannot be avoided. Another contributor suggested you modify the suspension. You rejected that. Other
people's assessment of your bike is not relevant to this discussion. Neither is melting race tires at Willow. Go buy an African
Twin or move to another house.
Steve

"?" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:37066546-262d-4652-a516-(E-Mail Removed)...
On Jun 9, 10:28 pm, "Steve Lusardi" <stevenos...@lusardi.de> wrote:
> Never use nitrogen in motorcycle tires.....ever. This is critical. Tire heat is essential for maximum traction. Bike tires
> filled
> with nitrogen stay too cold.

That depends on whether you're riding the street or on the race track.

The tire companies send trucks full of race tires to the club races at
Willow Springs and they will inflate the fast guys' tires with
nitrogen and the novices' tires with air.

I've gotten race compound tires hot enough to make the rubber melt and
ball up on Willow and I wasn't going that fast.

> I have followed this thread and like most of you, have found some of the statements made by the
> originator a bit short of credible. First, unless this fellow weighs 400 lbs, the suspension won't bottom out on any setting.

Well, you are *wrong*.

I weigh 250 pounds (the equivalent of two S'mees).

You also don't know what my rear spring rate is, or what Yamaha
believes is the typical weight for a rider or a passenger.

I'm guessing that Yamaha thinks that the typical weight for each is
180~190 pounds, because the rear spring is rated at 386 pounds per
inch.

But the swing arm has a mechanical advantage of about 3:1 on that
spring, so
the effective rate (without considering the rising rate effect of the
linkage lever) is 386/3=129 pounds/inch.

The rear axle moves through an arc of 130mm (5.122 inches).

Adjusting the laden rear suspension to the maximum recommended sag
of 40% with me aboard leaves me with 2.05 inches of wheel travel, so
the spring should be adequate to support 258 pounds at slow cruising
speed.

There is also a rubber bump stopper on the shock absorber shaft to
keep the mechanical parts from banging against each other.

I don't know what the free length of the spring is in order to figure
out how much initial preload is on the spring, but the range of
preload adjustment is 10 millimeters.

The rear spring is now preloaded to 3 millimeters.

> Setting up a suspension preload is stupid simple. Most of the readers here know how to do
> this, so I won't bore the readers with these directions. They can be found all over the net and in his owner's handbook.

No, setting sag is *not* stupid simple. Sport riders wouldn't know how
to begin setting sag if the magazine guys didn't write articles
telling them how to do it.

I followed manufacturer's recommendations and I followed the
instructions for setting static sag and race sag that were published
in Sport Rider.

At 30% loaded sag and the owners manual recommended tire pressure of
38 pounds, the result was a motorcycle that was so rigid it made my
eyeballs jiggle on the freeway and I couldn't focus on the road ahead.

So I started gradually reducing front and rear preload and increasing
sag.

> I suggest he owns the wrong bike. Sportbikes are not mile eaters. They are performance machines. if
> he wants a mile eater, he should buy one.

I must disagree. Remember that it was the Egomanical Tim Morrow that
introduced "mile eater" to this discussion, not me.

But...

The FZR1000 was described in the magazines as a "sport tourer with the
focus on sport," and later as a "power bike," similar to Kawasaki
ZX11's, ZX12's, etc.

One 1990's Los Angeles-based magazine article described the FZR1000 as
the sportbike you would want to be on, if you just had to be in Denver
in the morning and you didn't want to fly.

The FZR1000 was the Hayabusa of its period, with lots of straight line
power, but not so nimble in the twisties.

Nothing could stay with an FZR1000 when it came onto the power band
above 8000 RPM.

Up until the CBR900RR was introduced, the FZR1000 was the standard by
which all other sportbikes were judged.

All comparision tests between multiple models of big bore sportbikes
always included an FZR1000 in the 1990's.

However, one important piece of information that you may have missed
is my description of the poorly paved county road that is so rough it
influenced my decision to reduce suspension preload and tire pressure
for comfort.

This mountain road has been in existance since the 1820's, when
explorers like Jedediah Smith and Kit Carson used it to avoid
travelling through the swamp in the middle of California. General John
Fremont moved his army troops along this road on the way to Sacramento
during the Mexican War.

Stagecoaches followed this road to deliver the mail to Sacramento and
San Francisco during the gold rush.

I don't know when it was paved, or the last time it was repaved, but
it's full of potholes and patches and ripples and it gets used by
gravel trucks and it goes past my house.

My other choices are to ride an equally rough county road through the
grape vineyards and battle pickup trucks driven by Mexicans who can't
understand why I'm going so slow, or to play tag with the 18-wheelers
on the state highway and get tossed around by their wake.

On Jun 10, 10:42*am, "Krusty Kritter"
<IncompetencePersonified...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 9, 10:28*pm, "Steve Lusardi" <stevenos...@lusardi.de> wrote:
>
> > Never use nitrogen in motorcycle tires.....ever. This is critical. Tireheat is essential for maximum traction. Bike tires filled
> > with nitrogen stay too cold.
>
> That depends on whether you're riding the street or on the race track.
>
> The tire companies send trucks full of race tires to the club races at
> Willow Springs and they will inflate the fast guys' tires with
> nitrogen and the novices' tires with air.
>
> I've gotten race compound tires hot enough to make the rubber melt and
> ball up on Willow and I wasn't going that fast.
>
> > I have followed this thread and like most of you, have found some of the statements made by the
> > originator a bit short of credible. First, unless this fellow weighs 400 lbs, the suspension won't bottom out on any setting.
>
> Well, you are *wrong*.
>
> I weigh 250 pounds (the equivalent of two S'mees).
>
> You also don't know what my rear spring rate is, or what Yamaha
> believes is the typical weight for a rider or a passenger.
>
> I'm guessing that Yamaha thinks that the typical weight for each is
> 180~190 pounds, because the rear spring is rated at 386 pounds per
> inch.
>
> But the swing arm has a mechanical advantage of about 3:1 on that
> spring, so
> the effective rate (without considering the rising rate effect of the
> linkage lever) is 386/3=129 pounds/inch.
>
> The rear axle moves through an arc of 130mm (5.122 inches).
>
> Adjusting the laden rear suspension to *the maximum recommended sag
> of 40% with me aboard leaves me with 2.05 inches of wheel travel, so
> the spring should be adequate to support 258 pounds at slow cruising
> speed.
>
> There is also a rubber bump stopper on the shock absorber shaft to
> keep the mechanical parts from banging against each other.
>
> I don't know what the free length of the spring is in order to figure
> out how much initial preload is on the spring, but the range of
> preload adjustment is 10 millimeters.
>
> The rear spring is now preloaded to 3 millimeters.
>
> > Setting up a suspension preload is stupid simple. Most of the readers here know how to do
> > this, so I won't bore the readers with these directions. They can be found all over the net and in his owner's handbook.
>
> No, setting sag is *not* stupid simple. Sport riders wouldn't know how
> to begin setting sag if the magazine guys didn't write articles
> telling them how to do it.
>
> I followed manufacturer's recommendations and I followed the
> instructions for setting static sag and race sag that were published
> in Sport Rider.
>
> At 30% loaded sag and the owners manual recommended tire pressure of
> 38 pounds, the result was a motorcycle that was so rigid it made my
> eyeballs jiggle on the freeway and I couldn't focus on the road ahead.
>
> So I started gradually reducing front and rear preload and increasing
> sag.
>
> > I suggest he owns the wrong bike. Sportbikes are not mile eaters. They are performance machines. if
> > he wants a mile eater, he should buy one.
>
> I must disagree. Remember that it was the Egomanical Tim Morrow that
> introduced "mile eater" to this discussion, not me.
>
> But...
>
> The FZR1000 was described in the magazines as a "sport tourer with the
> focus on sport," and later as a "power bike," similar to Kawasaki
> ZX11's, ZX12's, etc.
>
> One 1990's Los Angeles-based magazine article described the FZR1000 as
> the sportbike you would want to be on, if you just had to be in Denver
> in the morning and you didn't want to fly.
>
> The FZR1000 was the Hayabusa of its period, with lots of straight line
> power, but not so nimble in the twisties.
>
> Nothing could stay with an FZR1000 when it came onto the power band
> above 8000 RPM.
>
> Up until the CBR900RR was introduced, the FZR1000 was the standard by
> which all other sportbikes were judged.
>
> All comparision tests between multiple models of big bore sportbikes
> always included an FZR1000 in the 1990's.
>
> However, one important piece of information that you may have missed
> is my description of the poorly paved county road that is so rough it
> influenced my decision to reduce suspension preload and tire pressure
> for comfort.
>
> This mountain road has been in existance since the 1820's, when
> explorers like Jedediah Smith and Kit Carson used it to avoid
> travelling through the swamp in the middle of California. General John
> Fremont moved his army troops along this road on the way to Sacramento
> during the Mexican War.
>
> Stagecoaches followed this road to deliver the mail to Sacramento and
> San Francisco during the gold rush.
>
> I don't know when it was paved, or the last time it was repaved, but
> it's full of potholes and patches and ripples and it gets used by
> gravel trucks and it goes past my house.
>
> My other choices are to ride an equally rough county road through the
> grape vineyards and battle pickup trucks driven by Mexicans who can't
> understand why I'm going so slow, or to play tag with the 18-wheelers
> on the state highway and get tossed around by their wake.

All of the laboriously typed self justification and whinging in the
world doesn't alter the fact that you are responsible for setting your
suspension and tire pressures to match the conditions that you are
riding in, and if you are riding an FZR1000 (highly unlikely, given
your history of prevarication) and can't keep up with riders on full
dress Harleys - REGARDLESS of the road conditions and REGARDLESS of
the suspension settings - then you are, without a doubt, incompetent.

Whether yout incompetency in riding is greater or less than your
incompetency in suspension set-up is a moot point.

On Jun 10, 12:03*pm, "Steve Lusardi" <stevenos...@lusardi.de> wrote:

> What do you mean I'm wrong. You start a tread with a question.
> You then reject all suggestions. What's wrong with this picture?


Nothing at all. This is TOTALLY normal for the racist jerk, trying to
hide behind actual motorcycle content. He knows NOTHING about
motorcycles, but he has no life ands all the time in the world, so
this is his way of diddling himself.

On Jun 10, 8:09*am, "Vito" <v...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> ? wrote:

> > That depends on whether you're riding the street or on the race track.

> Racing tires are designed to have max stick in a certain temp
> range. *One gets that temp by adjusting air pressure: down = hotter, up =
> colder.
>
> It is important to keep the pressure/temp relationship linear (don't ask me
> ask the tire engineers). Air, especially from a compressor, contains water.
> At racing speeds the tires get hot enough to turn it to steam, causing a
> nonlinear pressure increase, especially on cages where tires run hotter.

As the sulfur that bonds molecular chains of rubber begins to melt at
234°F~246°F the rubber compound begins to devulcanize, and the rubber
on the surface of rear tire begins to slough off, turn into "smileys,"
and then begin to roll into little black balls...

http://www.csgnetwork.com/prescorh2oboilcalc.html

Add 29.4 PSI *gauge* inflation pressure to the 14.7 PSI *absolute*
pressure which your pressure gauge doesn't indicate and you get 44.1
PSI Absolute in your tire, which is 89.76 Inches Hg.

The BP of H2O is 322.810°F at 44.1 PSIA. If the rider isn't getting
his tires up to
323°F, he isn't boiling the condensation inside his tires and doesn't
*need* nitrogen.

When water boils, it expands by a factor of 1600:1...

The amount of water in compressed air can vary widely, though. I won't
dig into my steam engineers books to get into the effect of this
pressure rise on the
*volume* of the tire, even though volumetric increase due to pressure
rise *does* affect the *size* of the tire's contact patch.

If you *ass*-ume that air (or nitrogen) is a perfect *dry* gas, you
can calculate the *linear* rise in tire temperature by using the
formula

P1/T1 = P2/T2

Where pressure is absolute and temperature is expressed in degrees
Kelvin for the metric system or degrees Rankine for the English
system.

With an initial inflation pressure of 36 PSIG at 59°F and a final
(hot) pressure of 40 PSIG, the calculation is as follows:

( 36 + 14.696 ) / ( 59 + 459.67 ) = ( 40 + 14.696 ) / ( X + 459.67 ) ;

50.696 / 518.67 = 54.696 / ( X + 459.67 ) ;

0.0977423 = 54.696 / ( X + 459.67 ) ;

54.696 / 0.0977423 = ( X + 459.67 ) = 559.5935° Rankine

559.5935° Rankine - 459.67 = 99.92° Fahrenheit.

If you want to work this problem out *including* the inscrutable
factor of *volume,* the formula is

( P1 * V1 ) / T1 = ( P2 * V2 ) / T2

Ya didn't know you were talking to a former rocket scientist and steam
engineer, didja?

On Jun 10, 12:57*pm, "?" <breoganmacbr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 10, 8:09*am, "Vito" <v...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > ? wrote:
> > > That depends on whether you're riding the street or on the race track..
> > Racing tires are designed to have max stick in a certain temp
> > range. *One gets that temp by adjusting air pressure: down = hotter, up =
> > colder.
>
> > It is important to keep the pressure/temp relationship linear (don't ask me
> > ask the tire engineers). Air, especially from a compressor, contains water.
> > At racing speeds the tires get hot enough to turn it to steam, causing a
> > nonlinear pressure increase, especially on cages where tires run hotter..
>
> As the sulfur that bonds molecular chains of rubber begins to melt at
> 234°F~246°F the rubber compound begins to devulcanize, and the rubber
> on the surface of rear tire begins to slough off, turn into "smileys,"
> and then begin to roll into little black balls...
>
> http://www.csgnetwork.com/prescorh2oboilcalc.html
>
> Add 29.4 PSI *gauge* inflation pressure to the 14.7 PSI *absolute*
> pressure which your pressure gauge doesn't indicate and you get 44.1
> PSI Absolute in your tire, which is 89.76 Inches Hg.
>
> The BP of H2O is 322.810°F at 44.1 PSIA. If the rider isn't getting
> his tires up to
> 323°F, he isn't boiling the condensation inside his tires and doesn't
> *need* nitrogen.
>
> When water boils, it expands by a factor of 1600:1...
>
> The amount of water in compressed air can vary widely, though. I won't
> dig into my steam engineers books to get into the effect of this
> pressure rise on the
> *volume* of the tire, even though volumetric increase due to pressure
> rise *does* affect the *size* of the tire's contact patch.
>
> If you *ass*-ume that air (or nitrogen) is a perfect *dry* gas, you
> can calculate the *linear* rise in tire temperature by using the
> formula
>
> P1/T1 = P2/T2
>
> Where pressure is absolute and temperature is expressed in degrees
> Kelvin for the metric system or degrees Rankine for the English
> system.
>
> With an initial inflation pressure of 36 PSIG at 59°F *and a final
> (hot) pressure of 40 PSIG, the calculation is as follows:
>
> ( 36 + 14.696 ) / ( 59 + 459.67 ) = ( 40 + 14.696 ) / ( X + 459.67 ) ;
>
> 50.696 / 518.67 = 54.696 / ( X + 459.67 ) ;
>
> 0.0977423 = 54.696 / ( X + 459.67 ) ;
>
> 54.696 / 0.0977423 = ( X + 459.67 ) = 559.5935° Rankine
>
> 559.5935° Rankine - 459.67 = 99.92° Fahrenheit.
>
> If you want to work this problem out *including* the inscrutable
> factor of *volume,* the formula is
>
> ( P1 * V1 ) / T1 = ( P2 * V2 ) / T2
>
> Ya didn't know you were talking to a inveterate Googler and cut-n-paste
> engineer, didja?

Fixed that for you, Krusty.

On Jun 10, 9:03*am, "Steve Lusardi" <stevenos...@lusardi.de> wrote:
> What do you mean I'm wrong. You start a tread with a question. You then reject all suggestions. What's wrong with this picture?

Why can't I get a *straight answer* to the original question: "Has
anybody ever been in a situation where they were tempted to *reduce*
air pressure in their tires for comfort during a ride?"

Couldn't that question be answered by a simple "yes" or "no," perhaps
followed by an anecdote?

On Jun 10, 8:54*am, "Professional Rodeo Goat Rider"
<stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> wrong again lying pedo. 8^) I'm a light weight 190# 15-20% body fat
> AND I've got better cardio than the average.

For some strange reason, I'm thinking of you as Joe Buck in the scene
in the print version of "Midnight Cowboy" when the drag queen sat on
his face:

You're gasping for air, Keith.