A quote to warm Mark N.'s heart

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9299437%5E2722,00.html

"This sport is predominantly 80 per cent rider, 20 per cent machine,"
Burgess said. "It's not like Formula One, where it's 80 per cent car
and 20 per cent driver."

Surprise us, Mark, by not weaving a conspiracy theory about why
Burgess's self-interests are served by making the statement above.

 

The reason motorcycle racing is still so heavily influenced by the rider
is because the rider can control the CG position of the rigid body (bike and
rider) and how it loads and unloads the tires. In a car, the weight of
the driver is almost insignificant compared to the weight of the car,
and other than driving style, the driver really can't affect how the
tires are loaded and unloaded by the suspension geometry.

 

while I agree that the rider is MUCH more importan in
motorcycle racing than it is in car racing, I think he was
exaggerating a bit. I might have believed the 80/20
ratio in the 80s or early 90s but when they went to
unleaded fuel, and then later went to 4-strokes, it put
more emphasis on the bike and less on the rider. Does
Burgess think Rossi would win on the Proton or the Aprilia?
If he wouldn't, I don't see how you can say it is 80% rider.

 

How does changing the fuel and engine type affect the dynamics
of the bike/rider combo? If you put everybody on the Aprilia or
a Proton, Rossi would probably be the fastest man on it.

The problem with the Aprilia or the Proton is it may only be 1/2 or
3/4 of the bike that the Honda or Yamaha is. You have 80% rider and
a 10 to 15% bike, which still leaves them 5-10% off.

With the Yamaha, you may have a 18-19% bike, and a 80% rider with
Rossi. Whereas Honda may have 20% bike, and 77-79% riders.

The rider has a huge effect on the performance of the vehicle simply
because he can manipulate the CG.

 

Ask Mick Doohan. The easier you make the bikes to ride,
the more you take the rider out of it. Unleaded fuel reduced
the power and made the bikes a little easier to control. MotoGP
bikes have more power, but 4-strokes are (in general) easier to ride
than 2-strokes. Generally harder to ride bikes will "seperate the
men from the boys".

I agree that if EVERYONE was on the same bike (Proton, Aprilia,
etc) then Rossi would still be the fastest, but that doesn't prove anything.
That (sort of ) takes the bike out of the equation (if they are all factory
rides
with the same level of support)

Ok, using your math I will point out what I am trying to say.
If the total package is 100 pints and rider is 80% and bike is 20%
then we have a max 80 points from rider and 20 points from bike.
Then if Rossi is a perfect rider he is 100% or 80 points. Then if Biaggi
is onlly 90% of the rider that Rossi is (a stretch if you ask me) then he
gets 90% of 80 pints = 72 points. If Honda is a perfect bike it is 20
points.
If the Aprilia is 75% as good as the Honda, then it would be worth 15
points.

Rossi on an Aprilia would be 80 + 15 = 95
Edwards on a Honda would be 72 + 20 = 92

So do you think Rossi on an aprilia would be faster than Biaggi on
a Honda? The math example of course really doesn't mean anything, but
I think it makes my point. If it is the 80/20 ratio that Burgess suggests,
then
he is saying Rider matters 4 times more than bike. I just don't buy that.
I really
think to support a statement of that magnitude you would have to see someone
like Rossi get on a MUCH worse bike (ie Kawasaki) and beat someone only
slightly worse than Rossi (Hayden or Edwards or Biaggi) on a Honda.

I am not saying the rider doesn't have a huge effect on the handling of the
bike, but all professional riders know how to move their bodies around. But
there is much more to going fast than just putting your body in a certain
location.

 

What a fool I've been. I suddenly realized this NG has its own Rossi-Biaggi
relationship. That would be Julian and Mark N, of course. I don't think I
need to elaborate who is who
That said, I actually like both Rossi and Biaggi. I think it would be crazy
to say that Rossi isn't the best racer there is right now though. He
deserves all the praise he receives IMHO.
Though I haven't seen the first race--and it throws a bit of a wrench in my
pre-season prediction--I'll give it anyway.

For some reason I predicted Rossi to finish up 3rd. I thought he wouldn't
come up to speed until mid-season.
The top two finishers I thought would either be Biaggi, Gibernau or Edwards.
I didn't try to nail it down any further than that in my mind.

I'm a Honda devotee, but I certainly hope the other factories do well.
There's no doubt it's better with competition, and I would be happy to see
someone else win. I thought Ducati deserved manufacturer of the year last
year. To come out of nowhere and produce those results was phenomenal.
Most of all I'd like to see Proton do well. Backing the privateer has
always been my passion.

On the subject of bike vs. rider, of course there's a balance (an ever
shifting complicated one) but clearly the rider is nearing 80% of the
equation. If it were possible to quantitatively rate the various bikes,
even at GP level, the ability of the rider would make up the difference to
such a degree that we would probably arrive at some sort of 80%. "It's the
Indian not the arrows" someone once told me, true indeed.

 

I think the Honda RCV at the end of it's first year was an easy bike to
ride. The Yamaha at that stage wasn't bad either. It was really only the
Aprilia that was a scary monster that wanted to kill it's rider all the
time.

But now we're in a horsepower race, I think they've all turned nasty.
One of the side effects of this is how hard it is for most of the riders
to turn consistent laps. It seems really common in qualifying to see
lots of riders get one red helmet for fastest split and then to blow the
lap by 0.5-1.5s by making a small mistake in another split.

That was what amazed me about SA. Rossi and Biaggi riding *so* hard with
so few mistakes. Even Sete was doing qualifying lap times all race. I
don't think anyone (except maybe those three) thought that race pace
would be in the mid 33s.

 

Bows low while balancing a chicken on his back. "We are not worthy. We
are not worthy"...

 

It is easy to see... Biaggi has always been the "ROMAN EMPEROR" and acts
like a Primadonna without the guts to back it up.....


Rossi is a skinny party-boy who loves to race and loves the appreciation of
his fans....

Not that hard of a choice for me, this season will be that much sweeter..

Max will not beat Rossi for the championship this year, Rossi will not allow
it to happen because Max will have to many DnF's on Rossi's ass.

Neither one of them may win the Championship and they are the two best
riders out there (sorry KRJ), but it will be great too watch

Please, no more sympathy for Max because Valentino Pressured him out of the
corner at Welkom (its more than I can bear )

Silly Rabitt, Trix are 4 Kidz,

Craig

 

Take an average sports car club racer and put him in the fastest GP
car and he will likely be able to get within 3 seconds per lap of what
the best driver could turn. Put an average club racer on a GP bike
and he would be lucky to get within 10 seconds of the best possible
time. It is not unusual to have new motorcycle racers that are still
40 seconds off the pace for their class at the end of their first
weekend. That just doesn't happen with cars.

The reason for this IMO is the consequences for screwing up. With
four wheels under you it is easy to flirt with the limits of traction.
If you push too far you end up running wide, or maybe spinning out.
With a bike you can easily find yourself body surfing on pavement.
With a car, when you hit a wall, it means crumpled sheet metal. On a
bike, when you hit a wall, it means *you* hit the wall.

On a tight technical circuit Rossi could probably take an old CB350
and beat a novice on a GSXR 1000. The same type of thing just isn't
going to happen on four wheels.

Bruce

 

I think the converse is also true. If you put Michael Schumacher in the
average club racer's car, he'd probably go about 2-3 seconds a lap
faster than the club racer in his own car.

That's why there's a bunch of assholes in four wheel club racing and
much less so in the two wheel variety. Having more money just can't make
you go faster on a bike like it can in a car. Everybody who's ever
tried racing a bike has fallen off. A very humbling experience, I'm
sure.

Cracking the throttle open is easy. Sliding the front and rear wheels
at the same time without getting tossed is HARD.

I've never understood why people waste so much money on tricking out
their street bikes when the stock bike is more bike than most of them
will ever be able to handle.