AMA circuits...

.... are simply appalling, most of them. Concrete walls a few feet away on
every third turn are just too damn common.I just can not bring myself to
watch it.

....pablo

 

Some are, some aren't...........
T3

 

Just today. I tuned out of SpeedTV's AMA coverage quickly. The majority of
circuits are quite dangerous. Infineon (aka Sears) is terrible, I don't even
go there on track days, and it seesm to represent an average, because
today's seemed worse.

....pablo

 

Curious example. Brands Hatch maybe a dangerous circuit but I can't ever
remember (perhaps my memory is playing tricks) anyone being hurt there
due to the circuit layout. But then I do remember a 600ss bike flying
*across* the circuit 3 feet off the ground. That bit of the track has
since been changed. If you want a dangerous UK circuit, Cadwell is a
better example.

You'd better pray they don't put a chicane into the Mugello main
straight. That would be a shame.

 

And yet there are very few injuries that can really be blamed on these "unsafe" tracks. Statistics
would suggest that the tracks really aren't that "unsafe". Infineon did have a bad rep but upgrades
have been made and it is not as bad as it was. Racing is dangerous and racetracks don't make a lot
of money from motorcycle racing in the US so there will always be a bit of a problem.

--Jim

 

Yep, even Mladin seems happy with the changes.

 

Weren't the 500s hitting 185+ and maybe even 190 at
Mugello?

 

210mph, 340 kph Just as the front tyre goes light over the hump in the
road.

 

R6Chick replied:

I was there watching the AFM a week ago -- and that place has still more
concrete walls than the Pentagon could ever have dreamed of. Okay, Sears
Point has changed a lot, I give you that -- but it's only the grandstands,
the shaved hills, and a new pavement which have changed. The concrete walls
remain the same (even more so now) and the runoff space in the fast turns
haven't improved either (except for turn #1). Although Sears is a very fun
track, it's the scariest place I've ever ridden.

Why don't you tell the guy who hit the concrete wall in turn #2 (during last
AFM) a whining wuss, then? Or that whining wuss who flew into the wall of
turn #10 (+100mph turn) if he has returned to consciousness, that is. Or
that whining wuss who ran into the concrete wall out of the carousel during
the Formula Pacific race (the same afternoon). Whining wusses, all of them.

It's just amazing how arrogant some people can be. That also goes for those
who spent all this dough on the spectator side of the track while almost
completely overlooking safety issues.

Something which makes this even more perplexing is to see that there is in
fact plenty of unused space (which could be used for runoff) behind the wall
of turn #10. The same with turn #2 -- it would be easy to move that first
line of concrete wall closer to the retaining wall. The list goes on.

-- peer

 

Indeed. Thanks Peer.

At least they should set up some of those airbags in front of those concrete
walls for motorcycle races. It ain't done, it's naked concrete there.
Unacceptably unforgiving. An excellent loca rider died there in 2000, his
wife was expecting their first child. Even hay-stacks a la Isle of Man would
be better than the absolute nothingness - it's laziness and lack of respect
for safety because some idiots believe asking for more safety is about being
a wuss. Hell, I know riding a bike is dangerous, and if I get killed I
actually have the easy part if it's somewhat painless. It's coping with the
sudden loss that will scar many of the people close to you for life. It's
dealing with your broken body on-site that will shock your riding buddies
for life. It's selfish to not try to do to spare them the experience by
*fighting* to at least eliminate the no-brainer risks. And it's negligent to
not do the obvious things for safety. The fact "not many have hurt
themselves (yet)" is about the most intellectually lazy and irresponsible
argument I have heard. There is no way anyone with genuine love for the
sport would ever say that.

Wherever the quest for continuous safety improvements stops, it is
inevitable some accident will happen. It's just about statistics. It's never
good enough. And some places are downright negligent. And many AMA circuits
fall into that category. If AMA fans accept it, fine - but the local racing
heroes *will* eventually pay in blood. It's very sad. And the primary reason
I can't watch races where it's plain to see security was not taken all that
seriously.

....pablo

 

Mark,
Ask Miguel about the big white wall at Laconia, or for that matter ask Joe
leonard,(20 years before) it sucks...
The bottom line is that Europe enjoys "great" tracks because of F1. If you
haven't noticed there haven't been any
F1 races in the states, lately...... The reason as with all things is
$$$$...........Cart and IRL have F'ed everything up.....
Road America is the only (half-way) decent venue this country has, what a
shame!!!
T3

 

I am reluctant to say anything against more safety but ...

Bull crap. Racing is dangerous and always will be. Sure you should do what you can within the
limits imposed by physics, economics and politics but at some point the participants and their
families have to make a decision. Because their lives will always be on the line unless you remove
a good part of what motorcycle racing is all about.

Given the economics of motorcycle racing in the US the tracks will NEVER be as safe as you seem to
want them to be. Tracks will simply stop running motorcycle races because it will not be
economically feasible for them to provide the level of safety you seem to be demanding.

Nothing you describe will remove the inherent danger in motorcycle racing nor free the riders and/or
their families from having to deal with that danger. A significant number of injuries occur from
the rider's interaction with their own machine or the machines of other riders. Air fences, hay
bales, even big runoff room doesn't significantly fix that. I love the sport but frankly the danger
or risk is part of the love. It is possible to kill the sport by being a safety nazi and destroying
the economic and/or political basis on which the sport lives.

--Jim

 

IRL has fscked everything up, including CART. Fsck you
very much, Tony George -- you elevated NASCAR by lowering
the standards for open wheel racing.

 

AMEN..............
T3

 

Your reluctance shows. Safer circuits for motorcycles are NOT unaffordable,
many circuits show that. Take a look at Calafat next time you are on
vacation in Spain. Did not takea huge budget, just some brains. Containment
walls are great for cars. I am sure there was a time when someone said they
would be way too expensive to build. But as long as then are sufficient
people like you, satisfied with the status quo, then is no reason for
continuous improvement. If you'd been around 70 years ago, you'd be against
building circuits and sticking with racing on public roads.

....pablo

 

You miss at least part of my point. We are talking about US circuits in this thread and the
economics are just different here. It is a big deal, financially, to upgrade these tracks no matter
what you think you know. The situation is just plain different from what it is in Europe. New
circuits are being built with better safety but unless you want a LOT less racing the reality is
that older circuits will be used. Many of these tracks are club owned or leased (Laguna Seca for
instance) and the privately owned ones are never in great financial shape. And since most of the
money comes to these tracks from auto racing there is not necessarily the financial means and
motivation to spend money to improve the tracks for motorcycle racing.

If you simply say "we will not race or support racing unless the tracks are upgraded" then in the US
at least you are likely to get a lot less racing venues and events. That is just a fact of life here.

And yes I actually do like (sontrolled) street racing. And so do a lot of other folks if the
continued popularity of the IOM is any indication. I certainly don't like to see people get injured
or killed but the danger is an integral part of motor racing and always has been. It is exciting to
see people risking it all and using skill and luck to avoid the inherent danger. Why on earth do
you think people do all the dangerous recreational activities they do? It is the adrenaline rush
and excitement of putting it ALL on the line. I am sorry if you see things differently but I am
quite sure that is a big part of why people participate and spectate motor sports.

And I am not likely to vacation in Spain any time soon.

--Jim

 

Mark N wrote about Sears Point:

Yes, very much so. But that doesn't say anything about how bad this track is
today compared to the MotoGP tracks abroad (which is the issue of this
discussion).

Safety wise, Sears Point at its current configuration is still a far cry from
any of the European circuits. Period.

I wish you were correct, but sadly they even goofed this one. Either the
management of Sears Point need to reconfigurate the track altogether and/or
add more (much more) airbags, or just admit that they are running an unsafe
club track. However, Sears Point needs some BIG improvements to become a
safe track -- whether it's for club or national racing.

In any case, to compare any of the European tracks to the US' as "safe
tracks" (including Laguna Seca) would be a moot point. Remember, there's a
valid reason why the GP-circus left the US... (in addition to an economical
fiasco).

If you think I'm out of line, just go back and read Pablo's initial posts
where he points to the simple fact that the American tracks aren't as safe as
the Europeans. Okay, that's his point, and I heartily agree.

-- peer

 

Well I don't want anyone to think I want to see riders get killed or horribly injured. At the same
time I don't agree that people don't care or are negligent or the other things you accused people of.

A local club here runs (leases) a small track. They care about safety and have been actively
pursuing grants and donations to get air fence and you are right that it is not that expensive. But
it take a lot of labor to set up and maintain. And when you share the track it has to be taken down
and put up after every event. And it is just damn hard to get the volunteers out to do the job.
Even the riders won't really come out. Similar circumstances occur at many tracks. Even the big
professional tracks depend on large numbers of volunteers (without the volunteers the economics
simply don't make sense) to staff and prep for events and it is often not the track that provides
safety equipment but the event promoter or sanctioning body.

What I was trying to say is that there have been improvements and there will be still more but
racing is dangerous and that is actually an attraction for the sport even if that sounds and seems
perverse. People continue to ride in the IOM, continue to race in mountain canyons, etc. all of
which is hideously more dangerous than an AMA race. In the end it is up to the riders to decide on
acceptable safety levels. I have always supported the riders when they have protested ssafety
conditions at a track. And in the end they can always choose not to ride if it is too dangerous.

--Jim