As the worm turns, Pt. 3..

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33573

..."Speaking to private team managers at Mid-Ohio last Saturday evening,
DMG President Roger Edmondson said that the manufacturers have now
changed their positions again and are demanding that existing 2008 AMA
Superbike rules be run in 2009 and beyond. Edmondson characterized the
process of trying to work with manufacturers as being "a waste of time"
that could have been better spent finalizing other details for 2009,
including a three-year HD TV deal with five hours of programming from
each race weekend.

Adoption of the original DMG proposal could have addressed recent
demands from manufacturers that rules be made by a third party instead
of DMG: The original proposal committed to FIM World Superbike rules
for the premier class and based rules for the second 1000cc class on
FIM Superstock rules.

DMG and Edmondson have now come under fire from certain elements of the
media, for changing DMG's plans, with no mention of the fact that the
changes were made based on input from the manufacturers, and with no
mention that the input from manufacturers has changed at least twice."

Like I said last week, the negotiation period, if there ever really was
one, is pretty much over, though it will be interesting to see which of
the OEM's answer roll call later this month and if what I've heard is
accurate, it's gonna surprise a few folks...

Btw, 5 hours HD every race? Now we're talkin'!!!

 

What a bunch of bullshit.

There he was wasting his time with the manufacturers when he could have
been making deals with ABC sports. I'm sure there were three long
legged, blonde network executives vying to give him blowjobs while
taking the corporate jet to Paris in order to get the rights to put his
new motorcycle road racing series on their network. But ole Roger E.
stand up guy that he is said "Sorry ladies, but I'd be negligent in my
duties to not keep working with the motorcycle factories. We don't
really need the motorcycle factories, but I believe that it's in the
best interest of the sport to keep them involved. So, I have to stay
here and do my part."

Yup. That's what happened. I'm a believer.

 

Sounds good to me, however, I'm pretty sure I'd have opted for Paris...

 

Actually that's probably half-ass accurate, that is, how can they
market something that doesn't even exist on paper? If I understand it
correctly and TBH I wouldn't bet on it, DMG has set a minimum
participation level, as well as a drop dead date for FSB, supposedly
on, or before R/A. ASB and DSB, from all I hear, are a done deal, with
ASB more, or less a box stock litre bike and of course, their beloved
DSB, whatever the fuk that turns out to be..

At first glance Suz/Yosh looked to be the big loser in all this and if
they walk away for sure they will yield their supremacy without a
fight, on the other hand, they are also extremely well positioned to be
a major factor, if not THE factor in ASB, as well as being in very good
shape homo-wise in DSB with their 750, draw you're own conclusion's,
but I've heard that more than twice this week..

I heard they were all for it right up to the part that said no ASB's,
or anything other than direct factory supported bikes in FSB, period.
Whether true or not, we'll probably never know for sure, but I can see
how that might have had a sobering effect. Unfortunately, full-on,
trik'd out factory superbikes as we've known them here are more than
likely about to be taken off the endangered list and moved over to the
extinct side. I realize some folks will blame DMG and others the OEM's,
but I firmly believe those bikes and their rider's are just too damn
expensive for anyone other than an OEM and therein lies the hook. If
there were 8, or 9 factory's involved it would work great, but the less
you have the thiner it gets and if you only have 4, the grid gets
"kinda' tiny.."

I believe we'll see some '09 rules pretty soon for both ASB and DSB
that will include Buell and Duc, but I get the feeling DMG's not
spending much time on FSB these days..
As far as who's driving it who fuk'n knows for certain, but I keep
coming back to who looks good in what supposedly is going to get the
most exposure next year, DSB. Again, draw your own conclusion's..(hint,
they're busy prepping next year's DSB bike right now in ST)

It's likely the OEM's started out as a block, but as you know, "things
change and shit happens" and I'm fairly sure DMG did what it could to
exacerbate, as well as amplify a few things too. As far as any exit
strategies, I'd almost bet Honda has had one for quite sometime now,
Yam and Kaw I'm unsure, but at present look pretty much on the fence
and it's hard for me to believe Suz will just walk away from their
dynasty, that said, I wouldn't bet a nickel on any of that right now..

Ulrich? I dunno a whole bunch about him other than he's a rich MZine
dude whose son rides on (one of?) his team, btw, seems like a nice kid,
other than that and what he supposedly did for Hoppy, not much, and
even though I have no reason to question his motives, the fact he's got
a team and a magazine would make me a little leery of his position,
whatever it may be..

An outlaw series? I may be wrong, but I just don't see that happening
for a whole host of reasons, but one some folks tend to overlook is the
fact that these guys(France's) hold the keys to many doors in racing,
not all of them for sure, but more than enough to give pause to most
riders, wrenches and possibly even an OEM, or two, add that in with the
fact that they also wrote (as well as practice) the book on hardball
and, well, I'll put it like this, I don't think anyone will confuse it
with anything pleasant. Right, or wrong, and from wrenches to riders,
they could make a career in racing very difficult, if not impossible
for anyone ever participating in a "conflicting" series and if push
ever does come to shove don't for a second think such tactics beneath
them..

I heard somewhere RogEd had a sit-down with the Dorna guy at 'Guna, but
don't recall ever hearing anything about him and Flamini, have they
ever even talked? Heh, that'd it be a hell of a conversation, huh? A
bullshit convention in two-part harmony..

Nah, prepin' the pace car..

ABC/ESPN2 a 4, or 5 hr. (total) Saturday, Sunday deal,(same day delay)
is what I heard, though the class breakdown is anyone's guess..

 

C'mon Mark, I think, or at least I hope we both know better, though the
rumor is they're ready to ink one with FSB, and one without..

I agree they don't see factory racing as something they can sell
outside the industry, and if you look at it realistically for a minute
you might see their point, at least I can. As far as a boycott goes, I
don't believe they'll be one, sure, I fully expect Honda to not to race
next year, but beyond them it is unknown (at present) who else may
follow their lead, but let's look at some of the motivations involved.

Honda, in my opinion is not only driving, but has driven the collapse
of SB racing here, and it began when they stopped racing the factory
bikes, became suspiciously apparent when Blank quit the board 1 1/2
years ago and now they are pushing the MIC thing, but Honda is in a
little different position than the others with their Red Riders Club
contribution'$..

Yam, just invested a boatload of buck$ at Laguna and is most likely the
one to not follow Big Red's lead, if for no other reason, just for
spite..

Kaw, seeking market share and will most likely go where the exposure is..

Suz, too well positioned and too much to walk away from..

I hope not, but it will be their decision if they do and one I strongly
believe any that do will, sooner, rather than later, come to regret..

Possibly if the economy continues to tank, but otherwise don't count on it..

The west coast Jap racing league? Pipe dream at best..

I may have some money to wager, which one you want?

Actually, I heard it's still on the table, of course I'd imagine that
will depend on who exactly doesn't answer roll call..

Negotiations and flexibility, or carrot dangling, who F'ing knows?

Keeping their options open?

I seriously doubt any 600 will have the juice the H-D, Aprilia, KTM's
or DUC's will have and all the portable dynojet's on the planet won't
help, so yes, at face value they look to be at a disadvantage, though a
750 not so much..

I agree that FSB is only for factory supported bikes, though I disagree
they want, or feel the need to isolate them there, if the OEM's want to
race on a level field with everyone else, great, bring it! If not, oh
well, though it might be revealing which one (s) may not..

And Harley, Aprilia, KTM, BMW and whoever else that may come up with a
big inch racing twin..

Become obvious?

Ok, stop right there for a minute and let's look at Jordan. MJ is a
one-off deal if there ever was one, first, he's has more money than he
knows what to do with, secondly, has he even been on a box? (once, I
think) And finally if you think you can build a competitive FSB for
$300k I got some lakefront land down here just for you! Jeeze Mark,
some of those trik front ends cost around 200k, an ECU/TC another $100K
by the time you find someone to dial it in and don't forget yo have to
find someone(s) that has a clue on how to put a blueprinted engine that
cost's at least $50K together. Oh yeah and how many teams have just one
bike? Superbike racing in this country is/are exclusive to OEM's and
always have been, and please don't go off on me just for stating what I
believe is obvious..

I hear they're pretty much done, the line in the DB's finest sand is
drawn, if enough OEM's are in, great, if not, DMG's movin' on and from
what I've heard lately, that movin' on will not only be "expeditious,"
but without a rear view mirror too..

No doubt, but like I said, they "likely started out as a block."

I can see where the OEM's end up blaming each other for not enough
participation and of course DMG will catch a bunch of grief too, but
yeah, I don't doubt for a minute we'll be hearing a lot of stuff, what
I don't think we'll be seeing is a series ran in opposition to the AMA..

A player for sure, but anytime someone has something at $take, or an
advantage to make I get a little wary, but that's just me..

I suppose you can disregard gravity, or sunshine if need be, but in
reality things are a little different, but that aside for a minute do
you know who and what MIC is? Do you understand the politic$ of the
after market? Are you aware of the very "strained relationship" *ALL*
OEM's have with the "aftermarket?" If there was ever a way to fail
without beginning, well, nevermind..

Heh, heh, most likely that won't a prob, as I'd imagine any track that
would run in opposition of the AMA might have plenty of open dates in
their future..

They're (gonna end up) a day late and many dollars short, but hey,
there's always the tooth fairy..

Fippin' bugers at Mickey D's?

I don't know if money in and of itself has got them salivating as much
as a real shot at winning something does, though I'm sure it's in the
equation somewhere..

Yeah, but then they'd go cash their checks from Pirelli..

Hopefully we'll know more soon, I just wished I could afford VIR this
year, but no coinage, err, dollars, err, thousand's of dollars...

Nope, Kidd's bringin' DT back, bigtime too!! (hey, if you can disregard
gravity I can hope for DT;-)

 

Cool, next week..

Yay! Three in the 'hood, who knew? (btw,me) Fontucky's out, hmm, I
wouldn't count on it, at least not yet. How do you know Scramp's pissed
and why would they be? If AMA drops the double, that makes room for all
the GP classes, otherwise that's awesome news!! Three? As you might
expect, I like 3..

A big move? Hardly, though both bankings may be tenuous for the
Pirelli's, but we'll see..

It most certainly has in Grand AM, unless of course I missed the part
where outfits like Sun Trust Banks, Toshiba, Telmex, Crown Royal and
others started making cars..

Sorry to hear that, I really am too..

Oh fuk, we're gonna go to war with the Japs again? I knew these guys
had some juice, but damn!

Good, you'll be easy to spot..

And a wing and a prayer won't hurt either...

 

T3 points to:

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33605

Promoters are looking at worst case and then what? Doesn't
look too far along though..


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

And then:

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33606

I like this one:
"What if the MIC runs a series, what would be the feeling
of DMG if promoters ran both?"

I guess they need to confirm the obvious.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33607
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33606
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33605
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Aug/080808ru.htm
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Aug/080802d.htm

Forgive me if I sit back and go WTF?

Meanwhile, this weekend, BSB is at a wacky little circuit in Scotland
called Knockhill. BSB is changing to WSB rules for 2009. Not 2010, 2009.
And both WSB and BSB are throwing out Superpole and replacing it with a
3 part 1 hour final qualifying. The main teams this weekend are:-

- Ducati Airwaves. Byrne and Camier. Not a factory team but it might as
well be. If they can get the sponsorship, they all want to go to WSB
next year.

- Honda HM Plant. Crutchlow and Haslam. Not quite a factory team but it
night as well be as the personnel are all the same guys that took
Edwards to a WSB championship or two. Rumour is they also want to go to
WSB.

- Suzuki Rizla. Sykes and Watanabe. Again, not quite a factory team but
it might as well be. Finally got a team manager the equal of Paul
Denning in Jack Valentine. Sykes proved last weekend that he can run
with the best in WSB even on an overweight and underpowered bike
compared with full WSB spec. Watanbe has been completely underwhelming
for a JSB champion.

- Yamaha. Harris. Pretty much an underfunded private team. Horrendous
luck this year. If it wasn't for that, Harris is fast but the Yamaha is
suffering from the same thing as Haga and Corser of not being able to
make rear tyres last.

- Kawasaki. McConnell and Smart. Underfunded private team. They try hard
but never quite make it.

- Honda. Hydrex. Ellison and Martin. People are very rude about the
manager Shaun Muir but they're not doing that badly. Martin is out of
his depth on short circuits. Ellison has been doing pretty much what he
did in the USA. Occasional flashes and podiums but not quite there.

- Suzuki Relentless. Michael Laverty. Really close to being competitive.

So that's 12. Then there's another 13 to make a grid of 27. These are
not Superstock bikes but privately run Superbikes. 7 of them are racing
for a privateer's cup as well as for main points. There's even an MV out
there.

Eurosport 2 (cable and satellite) is going to have a 5 hour program on
Sunday covering it live with Burnicle and Witham commentating and Carter
and Haydon walking the pits. Race day is
- Superbikes *2
- Supersports 600
- Superstock 1000
- Superstock 600
- KTM Superdukes *2
- R1 Cup
- 125GP

At the end of today's practice the spread is 49.004 to 52.576 secs. In a
30 minute race, we might get one guy lapped.

The season as a whole is 12 meetings at 10.5 circuits (counting Brands
Indy as half) from April though October.

Now why can't the USA do this? Or more accurately, what is it going to
take to make this happen in the USA?

 

And why can't BSB get coverage as good as wot SuperbikePlanet does?

 

Julian Bond asks:

Because bikes are not where the money is here. Maybe
not there either but there aren't big time big buck alternatives
there to the extent there are here, I guess. Your
normal guy in the street has some interest and the normal
guy in the street here has none. He is far more interested
in a bunch of mesomorphic guys banging into each other
at the local stadium. No getting off the couch involved.

A freakin miracle.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

I thought the caveat was pretty good too, "Consequently any discussions
or planning that may lead to creating an alternate professional
motorcycle racing program should consider the costs, difficulties and
consequences outlined above and any movement along the lines of
establish a competing series should be undertaken with extreme caution."

 

What this looks like to me is that very early in the process the
factories looked at DMG and decided they didn't like what they saw. And
collectively they decided to deep six the whole deal. That may not have
been a conspiracy and they may each have reached that decision
individually, but that's where it ended up. So now it doesn't matter
what compromise DMG come back with, they'll find a way to refuse it. The
hope has to be that some time in the future like 2010, when DMG gives
up, some phoenix series will appear to replace it where they have more
say in how it's run.

If that's really the case, then DMG is doomed.

Which just shows how badly the AMA dropped the ball. It got more and
more messy until they couldn't make money at it any more and had to
sell.

Which is pretty damn decadent and looks like not very clever use of
marketing dollars. Those spiralling rider costs are part of the problem,
no?

A persistent theme of yours. So did it collapse? What do you even mean
by "collapse"? Even the two years when Hodgson and Toseland won produced
some great races.

If you focus on the results without knowing the background, you can draw
conclusions that Ducati had an unfair advantage. Do the same in the USA
and it looks like Suzuki have an unfair advantage.
- Ducati. Colin Wright runs a tight team that knows how to win. They've
had good equipment and good riders.
- Honda when they've had a real team have run Ducati really close.
- Suzuki seriously lost their way when Paul Denning left and John
Reynolds reached the end of his career. They're finally back.
- Rob McElnea at Yamaha has never had enough money and has spent too
much time trying to bring on young riders through, while simultaneously
running support races.
- Kawasaki haven't been competitive anywhere in the world since Muzzy,
Russell, Reynolds, Walker, Richards and Yanagawa. Either the bikes, the
riders or the teams have been seriously lacking.

Now go back and look at each year. In each case the championship has
been really close. Pretty much every year, it's gone down to the last
race or last meeting with several years where there were 3 riders with a
realistic chance of winning at that last meeting.

That's not necessarily a bad thing when it's support races to fill the
days racing. FWIW I think BSB has gone too far with this. The real
structure is
- Headline class with 2 races
- 2nd headline class for the very best riders outside the headline
- One or two Superstock classes for teams without the money to run in
the headline classes or riders who can't yet compete there
- A one make class for pure entertainment.
- 125GP because, well just because.

But 2 KTM Duke races is one too many. The R1 Cup will probably die. It's
been fun to watch, but the grids are getting smaller as people run out
of money. Superstock 600 or the Virgin Yamaha 600 cup isn't really
needed. And national 125GP no longer makes much sense because of the
problems with World 125GP.

The WSB format of
- Headline WSB class with 2 races
- 2nd headline class, WSS
- One or two Superstock classes
- One National support race
works doesn't it? Except how would you know in the USA when that formula
gets screwed around with whenever it comes to the USA.

Seriously, what's not to like? Good racing, professional package, good
live TV coverage; a good show. The only thing I can think of that might
demand a different approach in the USA is the distances fans need to
come to on race day which means most of them will be there for the
weekend and need to leave early on Sunday. Which means having to do
something more on Saturday. But running 2 races on Saturday and 2 on
Sunday is spreading it all pretty thin. Maybe this is actually about
which day the races happen. So how about having all races on Sat and a
big party Sat night. The public can fly in Friday night, watch the
racing, have the party and fly out Sunday. Like, err, Daytona.

 

There's no doubt I get their side of the story at a much higher volume
than others and I agree with SOME of their proposals, however, SOME I
do not, though unlike you I will make any decision or judgement using
what I know about racing, not what some shill writes..

They with tacit approval from the old Proracing sought to cut corners
and save a few bucks by building their own SB's like they did in FX, to
say it hasn't worked out so well is an understatement, not only for
them, but for SB racing here in general. Oh yeah, without any doubt
they shoulder a part of the collapse and by collapse I mean the last
few years of total and absolute Yosh dominance. You may think what your
seeing is real racing, I know better. It's really only a mildly
entertaining exhibition of Suzuki's big Gixxr and little else..

Why, because I know what I'm talkin' about, because I have a good idea
where the money comes from, or because, when it comes to this I don't
believe very much of what I read?

They've invested money, they'll prolly hang around..

Development again huh? Hacking and Hayden are driving the development
of the ZX-10, is that what you're going with? Wow, talk about acid!

What are they getting out of SB racing right now? Dude, when you win
races by time-zones any argument of no-shows comes off weak, as one
could easily argue they're not here now!

We'll see..

Again, I disagree..

I always thought the first couple of years were going to be shakey and
I have seen nothing to alter that view, if the Jap OEM's go, so be it
and let's move on, it's for sure not the end of the world, or for that
matter, racing..

Hehheh, I fear a few things, but I gotta tell ya, a west coast Jap
racing league ain't one of them..

Take it, or leave it, it's just what I heard..

So you say, by the way, over and over too, hmmm..

Fail and succeed are probably not the best words here, I believe DMG
doesn't feel they can sell FSB outside of the industry, but if the
OEM's want to fully support the class by ensuring a full grid they'd be
more than happy to run it, but they won't, will they?

Harley=Buell=1125r=damn good bike!

Again, become obvious? I saw that one commin' before the speedweek
annoucement..

So do I and that's not to say his team doesn't cost a fortune, he just
makes sooo much money!

Whoopedo! He could've saved himself a few million and just went out an
bought a few trophy's!

Even if you could and I think that's a huge stretch, why? You have
absolutely no chance of winning, anything!

Then quit thinking, because there isn't..

I do and that's because I listen, but what I don't do is believe all of
it, as just like the bullshit that gets passed off as news, everyone
has a position, either to make, or take..

I thought it started at DIS, didn't it?

I'm saving that one..

In your reality..

Wanna bet real money?

Like I said, I don't know much about the dude, but if he's done what
you say I'd prolly like him..

I claim nothing, I do, however, believe it..

Again, someone looking to protect something, or gain an advantage..

They probably wouldn't even have to, heh, just the thought of ending up
on France's shitlist would be enough to dash any notion of running a
series in opposition..

Whatever.. Anyway, gonna drop off this thread before something
"unsavory" happens, later...

 

Compared with what exactly?

 

Damn good in DSB, that is, if they let them run there. ASB? I wouldn't
bet on it, at least for a while..

 

BTW, I just got reminded, H-D=MV Agusta=pretty "decent" stuff too, huh?
I dunno 'bout you, but I damn sure wouldn't throw an F-4 outta' my
garage!...

 

On 2008-08-10 14:50:10 -0400, Mark N <> said:

T3 wrote: for the last time on this thread
Mark N said:

Okay, now we're getting somewhere - give us your lists of both.

I really like the idea of a level field in ASB and I would like to see
FSB too, but really only if there's a decent size grid of true SB's,
otherwise it'll look just about what we have today, an exhibition..

DSB I have problems on a couple of levels and though the Homo list is
at the top, the dyno/weight thing is up there pretty close. I
understand why they want it, but don't think it'll be the big easy
stick to enforce rules they believe it'll be, as those big inch twins
will more than likely become to completely dominant, one way, or
another..(there is no substitute for inches, cubic, or otherwise;-)

though unlike you I will make any decision or judgement using what I
know about racing, not what some shill writes..

So who's this shill? On the rare occasions when there's something in
print that actually supports Your Boys you seem quite willing to cite
it.

Who? They all are, for Christ's sake! Is there one writer that hasn't,
or doesn't nurse at the teat of one Jap OEM, or another? Case and
point, yer boi Abrams..


Oh, come on, Tom, that's just bizarre - Honda decides to lead the
collapse of SB, so to do that they stop buying the HRC stuff and build
bikes themselves instead, and then by quitting an AMA board, and then by
leading the fight to save true SBs??

They with tacit approval from the old Proracing sought to cut corners
and save a few bucks by building their own SB's like they did in FX,

"With the tacit approval from the old Proracing"?? Talk about
conspiracy theory! How does a sanctioning body have any right to get
into how a participant chooses to buy or build their bikes??

The series was ran for the OEM's to showcase their prowess/stuff and
the old PR allowed Honda to disengage, as it were, by attempting to
build their so-called superbikes in house, rather than lease the true
HRC Sbikes. Oh yeah, tell me again how that worked out? Umm, let's see,
it worked out to something like 40 some consecutive wins and counting
for Yosh! I'll repeat that, 40 straight wins, yeah, that's some good
racing there and that would make any series real compelling for someone
to continue, then again, maybe fukin' not..

Ê to
say it hasn't worked out so well is an understatement, not only for
them, but for SB racing here in general. Oh yeah, without any doubt
they shoulder a part of the collapse and by collapse I mean the last
few years of total and absolute Yosh dominance. You may think what your
seeing is real racing, I know better. It's really only a mildly
entertaining exhibition of Suzuki's big Gixxr and little else..

Yeah, and that's the AMA's fault, right. The AMA committed to keeping
the SB rules the same through this season a long time ago, in large
part because of all the noise Kawi was making when they pulled out of
the class, and that's what they did. Did you know Honda building their
own bikes would end up this unsuccessful? Do you know that HRC bikes
would be materially more successful, given their riders?

Dude, when a SStock bike shows as well and occasionally better than a
SBK, something's amiss, wouldn't you say?

And what are your sources of information then?

Who I may ride, or go fishin' with from time to time is absolutely none
of your business, but given the little I've shared here it's obviously
someone(s) fairly close to what's going on and had you been a little
less focused on trying to demonize folks you don't know Jack shit about
and paying a little more attention, I might have shared more. Besides,
they're more than capable of spreading their views themselves and damn
sure don't need me to further their cause..

ÊPeople you know who have connections over at DMG? The gossipy girls
around the water fountain down at the shop?

Heh, that got a chuckle here! Sorry, no girls, at least not nearly
often enough and our cheap ass (brand new too) water fountain's been
broke since we got it, but we do have a hose out back on the Gunk
rack..Ê

I know you want to be dismissive of machine development through racing,
because you know there won't be any under the DMG formula, but that
doesn't make it true...

You have no idea of what you speak..

Okay, at least we have something definitive out of you here - you think
this series will be successful (meaning notably more successful than
its predecessor, which you've repeatedly declared unsuccessful) without
superbikes and factory participation. DSBs run by teams funded by
non-OEM money will pack 'em in.

The series, as it is today, is lacking to say the very least and like a
lot of troubling things in this country it is the direct result of
corporate predation and, or domination, though I do believe DMG is
about to sort this out. Will they be successful? How the fuk do I know,
but one thing I do know is what we have right now is going nowhere very
fast. You know, everybody talks about change and everybody would like
to see M/C racing more mainstream, but when folks actually start trying
to change things the roaches come out of the woodwork and why is that?
It has nothing to do with racing, but more to do with personal, or
corporate greed and if certain OEM's aren't very careful there will be
blowback, I can almost guarantee it..

And your point is? Discussing anything with you just seems like a total
waste of time at points like this, you know.

Sorry you feel that way, but I don't know what more you want from me. I
understand where you're at, not only on this particular issue, but
geographically too and maybe you shouldn't think everyone else feels as
strongly as some of you guys out on the left(out) coast do..

Tom, I can't believe I have to explain this to you - people go racing
to race and not just to win.

Dood, I imagine there are some thing's you could explain to me,
however, racing is not one of them, not today, not tomorrow and more
than likely, not ever..

ÊIn any race there is one winner and there are 25 or 30 or whatever
losers. In almost any form of racing there are few teams who have all
the pieces necessary to win and will do so occasionally, and the
majority have essentially no chance.

Wow! So, according to you some dude could go drop $600k for a couple
bikes then what? Hire a crew, lease a shop, then a transporter, then a
rider, them make a bunch of hotel reservations just so they have
"essentially no chance" of winning anything? Dude, even if it were as
inexpensive as you say and it isn't even hand grenade close, why in the
hell would anyone in their right fukin' mind bother? Why would any
sponsor want to get involved? Why, why, why? Nevermind, please don't
bother to answer, as I will not reply...

Jordan's mentality is different, he's pretty much almost always won,
and that mentality apparently has arrived with him in racing. That's
great in terms of dedication, but the whining about not being able to
win and all the "unobtainium" stuff is, frankly, unbecoming. He is
having to learn that he just doesn't quite have the tools like he did
in basketball. But he is amazingly successful anyway, winning races and
probably the championship in SStock and fighting with factory teams and
getting podiums in SB. And I think he could win in SB, if he was
willing to spend the kind of money that Suzuki does, but he's not,
apparently. So he wants Suzuki to be forced to sell him their best
stuff. Of course he'd have to buy a Mladin or Spies as well.

The alternative is the DMG/NASCAR model, where all parts are controlled
and any bike that wins can immediately be penalized, the notion being
that everyone ultimately has a chance to win. But if that's the case,
why not just have the team owners fly to the track and draw lots and
hand the lucky one a trophy? Sure would save a lot of time and effort...

Heh, if it's anything like SBK right now they might as well do just that!

So you don't think they've made any missteps here, they haven't done
anything that deserves criticism?

Beyond maybe not telling the track owners the OEM's are speaking with
forked tongue, what have they actually done so far? Not much I can see,
that is, beyond showing some flexibility, but I believe they've gone
about as far as they're gonna go(much farther than I ever thought they
would too)on the matter of FSB and if any OEM's do leave I firmly
believe they will come, to not only regret the day they did, but will
remember which VP, or racing chief that pushed for it too..Ê

Like I said, I don't know much about the dude, but if he's done what
you say I'd prolly like him..

Oh, I'm sure you would. Here's something he wrote to me just prior to
the WSB round: "Secondly, it's hard to comment before the final,
detailed rules are known, and we're still waiting on the 1000cc class
rules. I don't like to take a position on a maybe or a guess or a
rumor." So as evasive as you are...

If by evasive you mean he doesn't project on some wildass speculation, okay..

Again, someone looking to protect something, or gain an advantage..

Newsflash, Tom: EVERYONE in racing is in that position. Look at Pegram
for a prime example.

Hey, don't fuk with the Worm, he's a hard workin' boy that deserves a
few breaks and I wouldn't be surprised if he catches a couple too..

Heh, heh, most likely that won't a prob, as I'd imagine any track that
would run in opposition of the AMA might have plenty of open dates in
their future..

And how is DMG going to manage that? The one real crossover between the
AMA and DMG is Grand Am, and I would bet the bikes bring in bigger
crowds generally. So would DMG pull out of a third to half of their
Grand Am schedule just to flex muscle? I seriously doubt that - what if
these tracks respond with the ol' raspberry? I think the only non-ISC
NASCAR track is Sears, and I doubt they pull out of that event just to
support the bikes.

They probably wouldn't even have to, heh, just the thought of ending up
on France's shitlist would be enough to dash any notion of running a
series in opposition..

Sears is owned by Bruton Smith, who is likely permanently on France's
shitlist. But Bruton has power, and France is pretty much forced to
deal with him. France's power isn't total, and in order to run his
series on tracks, those tracks have to be open and profitable, which
means making money running other races and getting sufficient crowds to
make them profitable. If France thinks the only way they hold their
event at a particular track and bring in a big crowd is to do what he
can to not give the track or the fans an alternative (or a second
opportunity), what does it say about his "vision"? If he runs his event
at Sears in the spring, does it really hurt him if another series
successfully runs there in the fall? Or does it actually help?

Dude, put yer hookah down, there ain't gonna be another series and if
the AMA ever got anything right, they nailed it when they chose DMG, if
for no other reason than their overwhelming presence in this country
precludes any such notions..


I can see the DMG promotions now - "Come watch Daytona Superbike and see
former losers on slow bikes actually win!" Great formula for success...

Former loser's? Heheh!! I'll try to remember to pass that little gem
along. Tell me something Mark, do you still have all your front teeth?
Heh, you must be fairly fleet of foot if you do..

Whatever.. Anyway, gonna drop off this thread before something
"unsavory" happens, later...

Quit while you're behind, might make a mistake and actually write
something of substance, could regret that later, it's hard to keep
walking that tightrope...

As far as I know the situation hasn't change over the weekend and the
very last thing I heard is that the negotiation period is past and it's
time to declare one way, or the other. Do they want them in? Yes they
do, but the Jap OEM's have to realize they are *NO LONGER* in a
position to dictate the terms of racing in this country, call it the
train leaving, the plane pushing off the gate, a paradigm shift, or
whatever the fuk you like, but I'm fairly certain those days are over.
Trust me on this, no one, or no OEM is irreplaceable, there will be
racing, fans will come and the TV too, and while it may not be your
particular cup of tea, *IT WILL BE SOMEBODY'S* and that I'll bet the
house on...

I'm done, for now, take care...

 

Over and out.....!

 

Well, if that's the case check-out this little treasure I ran across at
RRW, does it sound familiar?
It should and btw, hat's off to them, as well as "whoever" it was for
exposing a few myths...

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33654

The current professional road racing rules battle pitting Honda and
Suzuki against DMG has been fought in public (in the form of press
releases and statements to reporters) as well as behind the scenes.

Among the arguments used to support status-quo AMA road racing rules is
that manufacturers use U.S. racing to develop Supersport motorcycles
and that tire companies use racing to develop tires later fitted on
stock motorcycles sold to the public.

Those claims attracted the attention of a long-time U.S. motorcycle
industry insider who who offered to share his insight with Roadracing
World. The catch is, the executive would only speak on the condition
that he not be identified by name. Because Roadracing World knows and
has dealt with the insider directly for nearly 20 years, and because
his view from inside the Japanese motorcycle industry is a valuable
addition to the debate over professional road racing's future under the
control of DMG, we agreed to that condition.

Our source says that ÔfactoryÕ racing in the U.S. is a misnomer to begin with.

ÒThereÕs not a unified position between the manufacturers. And you
canÕt even call it a ÔfactoryÕ position unless youÕre talking about
Harley. These are distributors; they represent the brand. ThereÕs
always a certain level of conflict between the (U.S.) distributors and
the factories (in Japan). Each entity (factory and U.S. distributor)
kind of thinks theyÕre the center of the universe.Ó

According to the source, the manufacturers' claims that racing in the
U.S. is necessary for product development is complete marketing hogwash.

ÒThe whole R&D process is so complex that when American distributors
say, weÕve gotta do this for product development, that is such a load.
Some of the data flows back, but as part of a formal process Ð no way.
ItÕs all about racing to market and sell bikes Ð literbikes.

ÒWhatÕs behind this discord is that the manufacturers have lost
control, and theyÕve lost control to a company thatÕs got a whole lot
of money and knows how to run a racing series. I wonder if theyÕre
trying to screw up Roger (Edmondson)Õs efforts so much that they can
come back in and run things the way they want. The manufacturers have
developed the literbikes for a retail market. If you know you have to
have racing success to sell those bikes, and now someone comes in and
isnÕt as interested in racing them because of the tracks, well, youÕre
going to have problems.Ó

Racing, to the Japanese companies, is a marketing effort which is
linked to the literbikes. And that is where much of the problem lies Ð
the companies have placed the marketing efforts on bikes that were not
well-suited for U.S. racing.

ÒWhen the manufacturers decided to climb that mountain and race those
bikes, it was because thatÕs where the American market was going, even
though they knew that the tracks in the U.S. were not up to the
standards of the European tracks. They knew that the bikes would be
problems on U.S. tracks.

ÒThe U.S. distributors have been pushing to get Japan to develop bikes
that work on point-and-shoot, stop-and-go U.S. tracks. The Japanese
arenÕt typically all that interested in doing that, because itÕs not
necessary for success on the tracks in Europe and elsewhere. YouÕve
gotta do well at the world level.

ÒSo youÕve got companies where the (U.S. arm) has been pushing for a
literbike that works on U.S. tracks, and then DMG comes in and says
itÕs not as interested in literbikes, and the (U.S. arm) starts to go,
uh-oh. The U.S. people, personally, are heavily invested, as far as
their integrity, their credibility, their relationship with Japan, in
the literbikes.Ó

Can the Japanese companies successfully bail out of racing in the U.S.?
ThereÕs a significant risk, our source said.

ÒI think theyÕd have a hard time selling that to the public. Maybe if
you sit it out for a year, you say the marketÕs not good, weÕre coming
back strong next year, your market will wait. But you really run the
risk of alienating a lot of your public. If theyÕre nothing to cheer
for locally, theyÕll watch MotoGP, World Superbike ÉÓ

If Suzuki pulls out, the other manufacturers may see an opportunity to
get their bikes atop the podium in Superbike for the first time in
years. And in a broader sense, if DMG does create a racing product that
attracts widespread attention, the manufacturers who are participating
will reap benefits far beyond those who donÕt Ð benefits that are even
greater than the ones the companies involved in racing currently enjoy.

Making a racer the marketing focus, rather than the bike, makes a lot
of sense, the source said.

ÒLook at Valentino Rossi Ð he can win on anything. Look at Ricky
Carmichael Ð heÕs had a successful career with three different
manufacturers. ThatÕs how entertainment is tied to sports marketing.
Those guys are a brand onto themselves Ð and they help the
manufacturers reach audiences. If the manufacturers can accept a
position as important but not dominant when it comes to marketing, it
can benefit them.Ó

DMGÕs involvement in U.S. racing may be controversial, but it is
necessary if the sport is to attain anything like the level of
prominence it enjoys in Europe, the source said.

ÒThe fact is that the track promoters have to have a reason to invest
in their tracks, to make them safe enough to bring European-level
equipment here,Ó the source said. ÒAnd thatÕs what a company like DMG
can do Ð create a series that helps the promoters. ThatÕs the only way
to bring European-level racing to the United States. You canÕt run
MotoGP bikes on these tracks.Ó