Auto electrician required

IME they can't always cope with some complex word documents -
particularly with many tables and embedded graphics. YMMV.

--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest * 2 Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

 

I've traced all the circuits to do with starting/ignition in both
diagrams, & they're the same apart from the 3 extra wires from ECU to
Immobiliser Thingy in the UK one.

 

macs have had a save to pdf option in all print dialogs in all applications
for like 10 years:

http://ls.berkeley.edu/lscr/advice/using/printdialog-macosx1.gif

linux, the operating system of real pikeys, has had it for at least 8:

http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/draft_hig_new/images/windows-dialog-tabbed.png

 

What's going on there then. PDFs 'printed' from xpsviewer. I can see
them fine executed from my server in FTP but they are just grey if
browsed. Fucknose.

For what it's worth a "can't see the join" merged version of the UK
diagrams (adobe paint shop photo merge), but it's almost as fuzzy as my
first attempt.

http://www.flarefox.com/Stuff/combined-uk.pdf
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest * 2 Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

 

No shit.

As I have said to others, converting documents to PDF for free has also
been around for free for years in a windows environment. Just doesn't
always work perfectly IME.

--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest * 2 Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

 

I've got a crazy idea.

What happens if you just disconnect the Imobiliser amplifier from the
loom, and short the ignition wires..

the US ECU shouldn't need that bit in situ at all.

 

Print the PDF to something the MS XPS virtual printer (or something like
PDF995). That'll give you a file containing just the relevant pages.

 

Well quite. A litre sportsbike (albeit at the lardy sports tourer end of
the range) makes a perfectly viable cross-town commuter. An extra thirty
horses at the top end can't do any harm.

 

Riding it like he stole it?

It's about evens, I'd have thought.

 

So here is the nub of the problem:

http://www.flarefox.com/Stuff/zx10recus.pdf

The crux would seem to be the yellow and orange wires that link the UK
ecu and the immobiliser amplifier.

Except that on the US version there is a grey wire not present on the UK
version and on the UK there is a black wire not present on the US
version to complicate matters. But they are probably not important right
now.

As Champ has a key, the immobiliser amplifier must be getting the
correct input from the antenna. It can't, however, pass on a 'go signal'
to the ECU because the US ecu isn't even expecting one, or receive a
'go signal' because the US ecu can't provide one. Which is it ? Or
perhaps the UK ecu just establishes a connection between yellow and
orange.

I suspect many a scrote may have tried joining the orange and yellow
wires with a scotchlock in an attempt to hot wire a stolen bike. A
similar strategy worked for me on a Mk I pug 306 diesel when I got fed
up of the crap OEM alarm/immobiliser system, but could well fry
something on a modern system.

It's not the kind of setup where I would like to prod at connections
with a multimeter in an attempt at diagnosis. At least it's not canbus
though.

"Do I cut the red wire or blue?"


--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest * 2 Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

 

I agree.

No, the antenna just detects the chip in the key. The amplifier, er,
amplifies it, and sends some signals the to ECU.

The actual association is between key and ECU.

You're sort of missing the point.

It just wouldn't work - a UK ECU won't work at all without the right
key.

The only additional thing we've got here is that the UK ECU also puts
out some signal to work some ancillary stuff. And, as you say, the US
one doesn't. So that's what we've got to figure.

 

How about getting a US-spec ignition and key? Must be able to source
a secondhand one via Blaney-post.

 

Maybe, but as it's all US based, I don't think he'll have solved quite
the same problems.

I would if I could find an email addy, or even a name, on that site.

 

True, but he seems to know his way around the system pretty well.

How about , seeing as it seems to be his
domain?

BTW, the guy who just took my Nordwest away is racing at Jurby next
Sunday. His first time. Riding with a mate who lives in Peel. Small
world innit? Still not certain if I'll make it. Cough going deeper and
yellow clag returning. I'm off to the quack tomorrow. If he gives me
antibiotics of the right kind first go I may be OK to travel by Friday.


--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster [Heh Space at last!] Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

 

Champ wibbled...

<snip>


Krusty can probably sort you out, but if not and you're still stuck you
have my number.

If you have both wiring diagrams I can sort it in an afternoon, no
probs.

 

Pete Fisher wibbled...

If it is the right diagram, on the immobiliser connector (bottom right
of page 516), right most connector and second RM connector are power
coming from ignition (looks like right most should be 12V, 2nd RM is
earth) when ignition is on.

Other two both goto the ECU, one wire to each connector.

Could be as easy as connecting them together, or earthing both, or 12V
to both, or 12V to one, 0V to the other.

I'd need to see the racing loom diagram / test the racing loom to tell
you that.

 

Krusty wibbled...

The immobiliser socket feeds into the ECU.

I'll bet the racing loom has the right wires bridged so the ECU thinks
the immobiliser is happy, ergo the ECU turns on everything.

 

Pete Fisher wibbled...

Aha, thanks to the French power restrictor add on bit (feeds 0V to one
of the two ECU pins) I can count out the two ECU pins connecting to each
other.

The one you need to do (something) with is the white wire.

Get a 1k resistor from Maplin.

Measure voltage on the white wire with the ignition turned on.

If voltage when ignition is on is more than 0V (say 3.3V or more) then
connect it to 0V via the 1k resistor and try to start. If the voltage is
0V when unconnected, try connecting it to 12V through the 1k resistor.


DO NOT TRY WITHOUT THE RESISTOR or there's a 95% guaranteed fried ECU if
you guess the wrong one (12V/0V) first.

 

I don't see a download link for the racing harness (the thread got off topic
talking about how to grab pages of PDFs for dozens of posts) so I can't help
you anymore without that.

Can you point me to the normal harness your bike has and the racing harness?

 

<arrives late to the party>

All of which is completely correct. But what I'm wondering is if
you're chasing something that isn't even a problem?

AFAIAA, if the immobiliser is in the ECU, and you're using a race
ECU that doesn't have an immobiliser, then there's nothing that
should stop it from working.

The system is similar to that used in the Marelli 5.9M ECUs that
Ducati use, except they have an extra code in the clocks that needs
to match both the key and the ECU. The security comes from if the
key doesn't match the clocks and the ECU, then the it immobilises
the fuel pump. There is a way round this, by resetting the ECU into
a factory "learn" mode which will synch with the clocks/keys when
it's next switched on; this is how they come out of the factory.
But I digress...

Yes, it seems like you have an immobiliser fault, but you should
be able to put the race ECU into the loom (as I'd be pretty sure
that the looms are essentially identical, except for the missing
road kit on the race loom) and it would start. If the race ECU
doesn't care about the immobiliser, then it should just start.

The immobiliser antenna is just there to read the code from the
key and send it to the ECU; it's a dumb piece that just sends
a code. If the ECU isn't doing anything with this code then
surely it's not needed?

It's interesting that the starter turns but it doesn't fire.
Does the pump prime? Is petrol flowing? I'd be tempted to step
through the fuel system to see if it's flowing. You may just
have something stupid like a duff relay on the fuel injectors
or even a blown fuse.

Looking at the Race wiring diagram, there's no mention of
the antenna, so I wouldn't bother plugging it in to your
loom if you have it in there as it may be confusing the
ECU. It seems it's a dual function connector as it's marked
as immobiliser and diagnostics on the road loom. Maybe it's
shorting something it shouldn't be in the ECU?

Time to get the multimeter out I think? This is one of the
reasons we fitted the earlier FI loom to my race bike as it
uses the 1.5M ECU that doesn't have the immobiliser (at
least it's not enabled in the Ducati version) whereas the
later 5.9M ones do, and you need clocks and keys for it.