clothing question

Are there any fabric suits that have full CE approval like the BKS
leathers ones do, or do they all just have CE armour?

Ta

nick

 

Yes, there is the Halvarsson "Safety" jacket and trousers. And
I have no clue as to by whom (or indeed if) they are imported to
the UK.

 

Jofama, manufacturers of the Halvarssons Safety suit, will be making
their inaugural International Motorcycle Show appearance at the NEC
later this month.

Other CE textile *jacket* manufacturers: Scott Leathers (as supplied to
the Metropolitan Police) and BKS have also been developing one. These
are all EN 13595 Level 2 garments (the highest performance level).
Bickers and Fowlers both produce Level 1 suits (jacket and trousers);
primarily for Pizza Hut delivery riders, but Fowlers can also supply a
mainstream version under the "Weise" banner.

I am fortunate to own one of the first production Halvarssons suits in
captivity (May 2005) and the very prototype Scott Met Police jacket
upon which EC Type-Examination was granted. The RiDE report on the
Halvarssons suit didn't explain a fraction of it's all weather "climate
control" abilities.

HTH

 

Googeling around for more information on this item (as I may
be looking at least a jacket as my very nice Orina has
started to fall apart and places around here that do repairs
to "Nibo" membranes are hard to find) I found a posting by
you to this group that mentioned a "full mesh" outer jacket.
Halvarssons seems to think that we will have to wait a while
before global warming makes Sweden a tropical country so
there is no trace of that on the market here (yet). Or was
that something that did not get past the prototype stage?

As you have used this suit, how hot is the inner layer when
sitting in stationary traffic or walking?

 

Should I have written: "Halvarssons' 'suit"!

I agree. It's' 'shameful.

 

*groan*

'Hog

 

Well, since you ask...

The outer jackets and trousers are available in three configurations.
As far as I am aware, Jofama have only made the full mesh versions
available for police use so far (civilians get a part mesh and a solid
in both jackets and trousers); but my opinion is that all three options
are necessary (and I believe Jofama will be producing an all mesh
version in non-dayglo colours for next year) in order to enjoy the
fullest extent of the benefits the system provides across the sort of
temperatures I have ridden through, both here in the UK and across four
mainland European counties, since my suit arrived in May. My views on
when each of the options should be used are as follows:

Full mesh jacket. Obviously for dry hot weather use (say, 18 C
upwards?), although I have ridden through up to 20 minutes of both
light rain and heavy road spray in mine - including on my way back from
Düsseldorf a month back (when I hit heavy showers just west of the
M25/A1M junction) - and whilst the surface of the sleeves have
appeared wet (particularly the reflective stripes), not a drop of water
has got through to me!

Full mesh trousers. Again, obviously for dry, hot weather use, but same
comments as above apply. In fact, I reckon behind a touring fairing (my
RT, or similar ST 1100 or STX 1300), it will be possible to run with
these at lower ambient temperatures than for the jacket, which will is
more exposed to the airflow. Furthermore, the most uncomfortable part
of my journey to Düsseldorf (temperatures in the low 30s and high
humidity) was the walk from the car park into the hotel (although I
suspect I would have felt significantly more uncomfortable in anything
else; for further comment on which please read my closing remarks)! At
speeds above 10 mph, the cooling effects of the airflow were very
welcome.

Part mesh jacket (vented to inner biceps, forearms and each side of the
body). For use in dry, cool to warm conditions (say, 10 C up to 17 C?).
Possibly the sort of temperatures we are currently encountering. Again,
I have ridden in brief periods of light rain and haven't needed to stop
and switch to the waterproof layers.

Part mesh trousers (vented to front knees and thigh/abdomen junction).
As per jacket.

"Solid" jacket and trousers. For use in cold and/or prolonged wet
conditions. I haven't had cause to use mine yet, but RiDE magazine
seemed to think they are pretty much rain tight.

The suggested temperature ranges I have indicated above are based on my
own observations and experiences. How and when the various options are
used will depend on the nature and extremity of the ambient conditions,
the wearer's own physiology and the type of motorcycle being ridden
(faired, unfaired or off-road). These factors will individually or
collectively affect the point at which individual wearers of the suit
feel the need to switch to a different configuration of outer layers.

It sounds complicated and gives the impression that users of the suit
will have to carry each type of outer layer with them all the time. In
fact, based on my experience, once one becomes familiar with the way in
which the suit functions, and how it interacts with the aerodynamic
protection (or lack thereof) of the motorcycle and one's own tolerance
to heat and cold, I suspect it will prove quite possible to carry just
the waterproof outers and to wear whichever vented option one has
elected to use for the day (based on weather forecasts or merely
sticking one's head out of the front door before setting off!).

There are bound to be those who disagree with some or all of what I
have said. I cannot agree with comments I have heard that the suit is
too heavy and too hot to wear. Compared to what? If compared to a
conventional textile suit that fails at 0.65 seconds on the abrasion
test apparatus (compared to 13 seconds for the Halvarssons suit), then
yes, the latter is heavier - but for a very valid reason!

Compared to accredited leather clothing, however, then the difference
is not so pronounced. I weighed a CE leather suit and the textile suit
at a police force headquarters last year. The textile jacket was
slightly heavier, but feels lighter to wear (!) - and it must not be
overlooked that the leather jacket was measured on its own, without the
additional weight of the high visibility overjacket. The textile
trousers feel heavier, but are actually lighter than leather trousers.

Another aspect of the Halvarssons suit design is that it provides "Zone
2" protection (equivalent in performance to the limited areas of double
leather enhanced abrasion protection on CE leather garments) across the
entire surface area of the garments.

If it sounds like I am a confirmed fan of the suit, then those
observations are correct. I am not alone, however, for the suit has won
the textile suit test which appears in the latest edition of RiDE
magazine (although their report didn't even hint at the all-weather . I
have no commercial interest in the product, so it matters not a jot to
me financially whether Halvarssons sell one suit, ten thousand suits or
none at all. I do believe, however, that the suit deserves to sell in
major numbers based on its merits of technical, protective and
ergonomic superiority. I am just relieved that my faith in the
theoretical benefits of the concept has been confirmed by the reality.

As for how the suit feels at a stanstill or when walking around; with
the full mesh outers on it is still possible to feel air getting
through to the surface of my skin. On a hot day, whilst stationary, one
still fels warm in the suit - particularly behind a fairing and
especially if you have any engine heat coming back at you. However, I
went to meetings in London on succesive days and was warmer and more
sweaty in my BMW Goretex suit with underarm vents wide open than I was
in temperatures 8C warmer the following day in my Halvarssons suit.

Feeling hot and sticky whilst wearing bike clothing in high
temperatures and humidy is going to remain the case until someone comes
up with a liquid-cooled suit like the ones worn by bomb disposal
personnel. Then we will be into an entirely different dimension of
complexity - and cost!

How's the abberant apostrophe count in that posting, Bear? ;-)

 

<>:

<snip>

Could you remind us all how much one of these suits cost?

 

I know what RiDE magazine printed as the RRP: GBP 900 (GBP 500
jacket/GBP 400 trousers), but AFAIAA no UK RRP has yet been set by the
manufacturer, so where RiDE plucked their figures from I cannot say. I
imagine prices will be revealed at the NEC in two weeks' time.

Development of the Rukka CE textile suit, rumours of which have been
going around the trade for more than twelve months, is apparently
pretty close to completion, and if the rumours are to be believed, the
RRP of that product will be in the region of GBP 1700!

 

Well, like I said, "if the rumours are to be believed".

 

******

I'll stick with the cheap stuff I normally buy.

Odd that, I spend about seven hours a week on my bike often in shitty
weather and I start to sweat if I consider spending more than 100 quid
on any single piece of equipment. However I'm perfectly happy to spend
several times that on suits.

I'm hoping for some cheap Rukka kit at the NEC, or maybe I should just
go to the cheap shops in Dusseldorf.

 

If I bought one of those it would nearly double the value of all my bike
stuff, including the bikes...

 

So, why not buy the Halvarssons suit and increase the value of all
motorcycling chattels owned by you by a mere 50%? ;-)

 

And that will not be a commerical success - no way.

BKS can charge what they do because people know it's good and race in them -
I can't see that logic working for a textile suit - I just can't.

IMO, It's not cool - you won't get the Ducati crowd buying one and that's
the kind of audience with that kind of money to throw around.

If the Hal's suit is RRP approx £600-£900 then I could see it doing okay
because that's the equivalent price Aerostich etc charge - heck I'd pay for
that for a jolly good CE suit if it lasts as long as my BKS leathers seem to
be, especially when consider Dainese etc cost around £300 - £500 for
something that may not be anywhere near as good.

Over a grand though and I'd be thinking "leathers and waterproofs"

 

Nooooo... "so you came in for this chain lube but got a few other things so
the total is £1100"

 

dwb emerged from their own little world to say

another benefit of shaft drive....

 

Verdigris emerged from their own little world to say

I concur but would add "definitely the R-GS market".

There are plenty of people willing to pay £700 for an Aerostitch/BMW/Rukka
non-CE approved textile suit. Thus the Halvarssons suit will have an
advantage in the marketplace.

Rukka is an established brand. If they bring out something superior to
their existing highly rated kit then people will pay a premium.

The other thing to bear in mind: the biggest market for this stuff is in
Germany & USA. 1 UKP = 1 USD = 1 Euro as far as marketing men are
concerned.

 

This exchange reminds me of the remark made to me by a former MD of
Hein Gericke, that the public expects to pay a premium for accredited
products.

The situation that exists with motorcycle clothing is that the price
point has been set for and by "caveat emptor" products. The act of
consumers handing over their cash is a tacit validation of the
suppliers' pricing policies. Some of these products aren't bad at all,
of course - very close to EN 13595 & "Conformite Europeen"
specifications in certain cases - and some are downright diabolical.
Price is not an indicator, nor a guarantee of quality.

One thing that should not be overlooked is the R&D which has gone into
these new EN 13595/CE textile garments - not just the Halvarssons
product, but those from Scott Leathers, BKS, Bickers and Fowlers. These
companies had to source superior materials - or invent an entirely new
material in the case of the Halvarssons suit - and validate them
through testing. Then they had to go through the approval process. The
R&D element can take far longer and cost many times more than the
certification component. These costs have to be amortized through unit
sales.

 

Oh dear. What's the point of making a great product them placing it at
a price point where 98% of customers will say FRO.

'Hog

 

The prices here are just below SEK 6000 for the jacket and a
bit above SEK 5000 for the trousers. Seems to be a tad lower
than RiDEs figure but it was a long time since I looked at the
exchange rates.

Not difficult to believe, that's how prices for premium products
from Rukka usually compare to Jofama (/Halvarsson/Lindstrands).
To be fair, one has to say that top of the line Rukka kit is usually
outstanding. I have a pair of Rukka trousers that are more than
20 years old. The kevlar on the knees is starting to rip out of the
stitching and other wear and tear, but they are still 100% water-
proof!