Ebay, non delivery from suppliers

I've managed to buy a couple of items over the last six months that did
not turn up.

In both cases I made payment through paypal and in both cases the
sellers bullshitted about having sent it and it must be the post
office's fault. However their bullshit was inconsistent so it was plain
to me that they were lying.

The bit that impressed me was that PayPal have actually refunded me the
money (less a small admin fee IIRC). I'm rather impressed really.

 

The same thing is happening to me at the mo.

 

Whether or not this is the case, they have entered into a contract with
the Post Office for the delivery of the item, and non-delivery is their
problem. I have twice found that pointing this out firmly and insisting
on a replacement or refund has resulted in them backing down, before I
got to try threatening a small claim for breach of contract.

 

....assuming you have obtained proof of postage, and even then, it's down to
you to specify whether or not you want the item insured etc.

 

Unless the seller has categorically disclaimed all responsibility once
the item is sent (and very few auctions actually do this), the seller
retains full responsibility for delivery of the item, regardless of
whether insurance is purchased (in any case, insurance can only be
claimed on by the sender, not the intended recipient).

Proof of postage etc. is of no interest to the buyer - the Post Ofice
will only deal with the sender, as they have no contract with the
addressee.

 

The point is, without proof of postage, there is no 'contract' as such, with
the Post Office - if anything, it should be one of the conditions of ebay,
that all items being sent rather than collected, should be sent recorded
delivery.

When I list stuff, I offer the option of the buyer paying the extra for the
item to be insured... if they choose not to take that, then it's down to
them if it goes missing enroute to them.

I'd actually like to see a buyer try to take it through the courts, when the
seller has said proof of postage.

Fortunately, all I've ever knowingly had go missing in the post in the past,
was some documents sent to DVLA.

 

JackH emerged from their own little world to say

Recorded delivery for every item is not necessary. This would just drive up
the price of items to the buyer. You can get proof of posting *free*. For
low value items this is enough as the Post Office will compensate for items
up to £18 IIRC.

The last few items I've bought from Ebay have been s/h PS2 games for my
lad. Items cost £5-10. The sellers take the piss and ask for £2 postage. As
serf says, they take the risk that the item does not turn up and I would
expect a refund if it didn't. Assuming they sent the item then they make a
claim against the Post Office.

 

By a whole 61p or thereabouts, IIRC.

Yes, I know this...

But it doesn't safeguard senders from spivs at the other end that say they
never received the goods or whatever.

I didn't know this... but having just looked on their website, it's actually
up to £30.

Seems like something potentially open to abuse, given they don't actually
know whether they've then actually delivered it or not, but who are we to
question why...

It depends partly on what constitutes the packaging, but things like jiffy
bags etc., if you don't buy them in bulk, soon start to mount up, costs
wise - you're paying for postage *and* packaging, as a rule.

If it was sent recorded delivery, then I'd agreed.

FWIW, I'll be making all my listing 'recorded delivery only' from now on,or
at least anything that fetches over a tenner, and it's up to the buyer to
pay the extra for any insurance over the £30 compensation limit (which will
be offered as part of the listings, by way of 'special delivery') - after
all, the buyer is usually expected to cover all postage and packaging costs,
are they not?

 

Not so. If you put a stamp on a letter and put it in a postbox, then
you have entered into a contract with the Post Ofice. Granted that
without proof of posting, you would have to work harder to prove the
fact. But why should the buyer be interested in this, unless the seller
has categorically said "once it's over the counter, I'm not
interested". (Even so, a court may still find that the seller has a
responsibility by virtue of having entered into a contract for
delivery.)

- if anything, it should be one of the

A judicious seller probably would put this on their auctions.

Now this is all in the grey area of the legal interpretation of
contract law. Your average county court judge would be delighted to
mull over exactly what the man on the Clapham omnibus would understand
to be meant by the wording of an ebay auction, and whether existing
case law over-rides it. At 40 quid a throw payable by the loser,
someone is bound to give it a shot now and then.

Nice. But you may find it worth revising your wording still. If
something that you sent goes missing in the post and you are holding
the proof of postage slip, no-one else can claim for the missing item -
you are the only one who can sort the mess out!

 

Don't mean jack shit, it's up to the seller to deliver the goods. As
you are told many times by DVLA and the courts 'Proof of postage is
NOT proof of delivery'

On another note I always get Paypal to refund the cost of the good and
the postage it cost me, I've never had to pay any 'Admin' charges for
this. They just do a refund and the full amount I paid is refunded
--

http://Borg.no-ip.com

XJ900 Trike GS850 Trike

Some people are like slinkys....
no real use but it makes you smile when they fall down stairs!

 

JackH emerged from their own little world to say

The P&P costs are part of the overall cost, yes.

However, it is the seller's responsibility to ensure the goods are
delivered once the buyer has agreed terms.

If the seller is not willing to accept the risk that some items will a) not
get delivered or b) some buyers are lying cunts then they should insist on
the additional insurance/proof of delivery that recorded delivery provides.
Then, it is up to the buyer to decide if the additional cost represents
good value.

What annoys me is that some sellers, once they have the buyer's money, just
DGAF[1] and can't be bothered to claim against the Post Office. As serf
says, it is only the holder of the certificate of posting that can sort the
matter.

[1] and I'm glad that Burnt has had some success with the Paypal indemnity
against a fraudster or lazy ****.

 

I think you will find that in court, if you can prove beyond reasonable
doubt you've actually sent something, then it would be questionable to say
the least... and another reason why I've said elsewhere, stuff should always
be sent recorded delivery.

Yes, hence why I send recorded delivery... ;-)

'Special Delivery' is better in as much you can find out online who actually
signed for it... with recorded, it costs another £2 something to get the
actual name of who signed, should there then be any discrepancy.

Point of order - I sold the Fazer a few months ago, and the new owner went
out and copped a couple of parking tickets etc., before the change hit
DVLA - I replied to the original notice to owner, by recorded delivery...
which Westminster Councils parking gestapo, failed to acknowledge.

They've since had two more recorded delivery wads containing objections to
the then issued charge certificate, proof of sale of the bike etc., one of
which was addressed to the head of parking services, and they've now dropped
the matter.

On another note... I borrowed my dads car in August. He's since got the
final notice regarding a speeding ticket on it I appear to have unwittingly
picked up in it, yet he never received the original NIP... so how does the
above work with regards to the above, as when I had a load of grief over
another parking ticket ages ago, the cuntcil representative I was dealing
with claimed they'd done all they legally had to, in sending whatever
bollocks it is they need to send.

I may have to do this soonish - I bought a part for my dads car which then
turned out to be A: faulty, and B: not an OE part, as implied by the
auction. The guy agreed a refund, and has had the unit back nearly two
weeks (sent recorded delivery), and has claimed he's having 'technical
difficulties' with his paypal account... I'll give him another week before I
look towards seeking recompense via Paypal themselves.

 

Agreed, and if you've stated that the buyer can pay 'x' and take this risk,
or 'y', and have less risk, then it's down to them to decide which they'd
prefer to take the risk on, so long as the seller can provide proof it was
sent and per the options stated in said auction... which takes me back to my
original point; maybe if everything was sent costing the extra 66p I've just
looked up on the Royal Mail website, that it costs to do recorded delivery,
then there would be ultimate proof on both sides that something had been
sent, and then received, or not as the case maybe.

Or for much higher value, high risk items, special delivery is where it's
at.

Aye, out of order.

Actually, I told a white lie earlier... I did have one thing allegedly not
delivered, that I sent to a winner of one of my auctions via Royal ... but
it was only something like a fiver, so I sent a replacement, no quibbling.

It's when people say 'ooh, I never received that £150 mobile I bought off
you', I'd have a problem with doing the same. ;-)

Indeed... they were regarded as the work of Satan not so long ago in that
respect, so hopefully this is something they will continue to 'keep the good
work up' with.

 

No shit... not least as if it came to court, the Post Office would be well
within their rights to point out you had every opportunity to get proof of
posting, free of charge.

Hence the, as I've said elsewhere, need for the seller to send recorded or
special delivery really, to cover their own arse, and stop anyone else
taking the piss at the other end - if you live in a shared house / block of
flats, it's not the fault of the sender or Post Office, if one of the other
shitehawks there signs for something, and makes sure you don't get it, is
it.

Well face facts... it would probably stop quite so much stuff going missing,
allegedly or otherwise.

 

Agreed but if they did give reasonable doubt about not receiving the
good you would still have to claim from the PO and proof of
postage/Recorded is only insured up to £25ish, unless with recorded
you ask for extra insurance.

I just send a mobile Special delivery it cost £4.30 and was insured up
to £250 well worth that little bit extra I think
--

http://Borg.no-ip.com

XJ900 Trike GS850 Trike

Some people are like slinkys....
no real use but it makes you smile when they fall down stairs!

 

What I do, is as mentioned elsewhere in the thread offer insurance as
an option with a clear statement that if it's declined then I'll
obtain proof of posting but they can sought things out with the PO. If
I know the item is fairly valuable then if possible it goes special
delivery - if the buyer then specifically asks for non-insured
shipping it's their lookout.

Interestingly of 5 items I sent from 3 different post offices by
recorded delivery only 2 signatures were obtained. Takes the post
office 3 weeks before they'll even investigate but you do eventually
get the cost back. However, unless you make a song and dance they'll
try and compensate by sending a book of stamps - sod all use if the
missing item is worth £20.

 

I don't think 2 quid is unreasonable for send a DVD case through the
post.

Quid for the jiffy bag and the rest for 1st class post.

 

Wrong

--
Veggie Dave
UKRMHRC#2 BOTAFOF#08
IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com
Extreme Racing http://www.veggie-dave.co.uk
Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me

 

Actually, the DVLA say if it's sent then it means you got it. An NIP,
for example, has to be SENT within X days, not received. Whether you
ever receive it or not is never even considered

--
Veggie Dave
UKRMHRC#2 BOTAFOF#08
IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com
Extreme Racing http://www.veggie-dave.co.uk
Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me

 

Probably 'cos it's bollocks. When I've had stuff go missing they refused
point blank to deal with me as the person receiving it has to claim off
the Post Office, not the sender

--
Veggie Dave
UKRMHRC#2 BOTAFOF#08
IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com
Extreme Racing http://www.veggie-dave.co.uk
Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me