effective opposition

Discussion in 'UK Motorcycles' started by wessie, Jun 9, 2011.

  1. wessie

    Salad Dodger Guest

    I'm still waiting for a fully elected House of Lords, as promised in
    Salad Dodger, Jun 10, 2011
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  2. wessie

    ginge Guest

    Are they the only options?

    See, I think they could have done the same thing as they did with
    Iceland, and underwritten the first 50 or even 75k of personal savings
    for everyone, but still let the bank go to the wall.

    99% of the population would have been fine with this, and the general
    public wouldn't have been left paying for commercial mismanagement.
    ginge, Jun 10, 2011
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  3. wessie

    Salad Dodger Guest

    Was it right for the government to provide a solution to a problem
    they were intrumental in bringing aout?

    Of course it was.

    I don't see Brown or Darling suffering too much for it, though.

    Brown's drawn over a year's salary as MP, and has barely turned up for
    work, because he's been writing his book.
    Salad Dodger, Jun 10, 2011
  4. wessie

    Colin Irvine Guest

    Colin Irvine, Jun 11, 2011
  5. wessie

    Stephen Guest

    I didn't vote labour. Ever. I did vote lib dem for several years, and
    did at the last election.

    And, with all due respect, you're not in the best position to talk
    about being blind to the behaviour of a party. All it takes is the
    mention of Tory for you to respond based on the miners strike from
    (almost) 30 years ago.
    You are right. I have changed my views significantly but mainly
    because I have been sick and tired of the actions of UK Uncut and
    similar organisations and the expectation that the state is there to
    provide for everything they want.

    Where do you propose the money comes from to pay these rents?

    Now, I don't believe for one moment that the policy will be
    implemented in its full extent. However I would be more than happy to
    see a cap applied to new claiments.

    Yes, it's tough but at the same time why the **** do people expect the
    state to take care of them.

    Nasty and mean or prudent? I'll accept 'harsh' once people are pushed
    out of their houses, until then it's about setting a scene.
    The councils took the decision where to cut the expenditure. The
    government simply stopped the reckless spending.

    It all comes down to what the council prioritise and when I look at
    where some spending priorities are made (e.g. bus lanes being built
    for 1 mile at a cost of several million and no significant benefit to
    transport, road narrowing, silly "look how fast you're going signs",
    iPads for councillors because the poor dears can't carry laptops etc.)
    I think the problem is with the councils.

    Regarding the parents, surely it's the job of a responsible parent to
    make sure their children are looked after? To the extent of one
    parent working harder so the other can be with the children. People
    need to stop being so fucking selfish and take *THEIR*
    responsibilities seriously.

    Unfortunate but driven by economic situations.
    Eh? There were barely any school crossing wardens when I was at school
    and few were driven to school.

    Half the time the wardens are stopping traffic for parents anyway.
    Glad to see them go.

    Petrol prices will drive people (excuse the pun) to walk more anyway.
    Maybe people will walk their children to school and said kids will
    learn some road sense.
    OK, so if I remember because I only saw one of these articles, they
    claimed 20% or so of parents were incapable of reading to children and
    25% of 11 year olds were functionally illiterate?

    However, again, it is the schools who are choosing where the axe

    I don't believe it is an ideological experiment.

    This lot are trying to put right the damage done in the past.
    Stephen, Jun 11, 2011
  6. wessie

    Stephen Guest

    Well, I don't believe 99% of the population have anything like 50k in
    savings with a single bank.

    What is the current guarantee, 30k? I think that would cover the vast
    majority of society.

    And letting the banks go to the wall would have been unpleasant but I
    think necessary since it is unacceptable that large businesses are
    'too big to fail'.
    Stephen, Jun 11, 2011
  7. wessie

    Stephen Guest

    Are you?

    I'd like to turn the clock back to 97 and have an unelected house of
    lords and revert to the 'evening hours' of the house of commons.
    Stephen, Jun 11, 2011
  8. wessie

    Stephen Guest

    And this is the crux of it. I don't know what the real risks of our
    ratings changing were. However if our credit rating is reduced we end
    up paying higher interest on our debts and this risks compounding the
    situation. If the Government's positioning (and I think much is
    positioning rather than action) has been effective then they have done

    I presume the speed of cuts was done to get it over with. But
    mentioning speed of cuts, what speed has there been? Has anyone been
    kicked out of london because the rent is not being paid by the state
    any more? (I don't think so, yet). Maybe we've given a little less to
    the arts council. What else? Less money to the councils this year,
    less money to higher education from 2012 beyond that?
    Stephen, Jun 11, 2011
  9. wessie

    Colin Irvine Guest

    I'd just go back a year or two, to before the recent expansion. But
    yes, much as I hate the principle it seems to me that the current HoL
    exemplifies "if it ain't broke don't fix it".
    Colin Irvine, Jun 11, 2011
  10. wessie

    Salad Dodger Guest

    Well, I *am* still waiting. I'm not necessarily hoping, mind.
    I'd ike to turn the clock back to 1970 and tell John Smith to exercise
    a bit more.
    Salad Dodger, Jun 11, 2011
  11. wessie

    Andy B Guest

    The worst thing about him dying isn't that we missed out on a potentialy
    decent PM but he'd probably have had someone other than Brown succeed
    Andy B, Jun 11, 2011
  12. wessie

    Salad Dodger Guest

    Trouble is, I can't think of any of NuLab's inner circle that I would
    consider a decent successor.

    The multiple "coup" attempts revealed several of thme to be spineless
    shits, and the likes of Blinky Balls make the blood run cold.

    Nice bit earlier in the week with RedEd and Blinky moaning about the
    reduced CGT charge paid by the company that sold all those care homes
    (that have been in the news recently) a few years ago.

    Not only was it a few years ago (hence not a coalition problem), but
    the tapering was introduced in 1998, when among GB's special advisers
    at the treasury were EB and EM.
    Salad Dodger, Jun 11, 2011
  13. wessie

    wessie Guest

    That would be lovely. Certainly make my day job easier.

    Cloud cuckoo land in reality as you are asking people not to be human.
    Some 14 year old girls ****, some get pregnant. Adult relationships
    break down before babies are born. People drink alcohol, take drugs.
    Kids are neglected & abused. People get into uncontrollable debt because
    the nice man *sold* them a mortgage they could never afford. I could go

    If you try to manage that lot through economic measures then you are
    just going to drive the black economy. It's already starting to happen
    as the reductions in property crime seen in the last decade are starting
    to reverse.

    In my line of work the economic factors of the last 2 years are starting
    to show in an increased number of referrals[1]. Some people are losing
    their jobs, some are downsizing into smaller homes. Most are coping but
    relationship problems are increasing, especially the levels of domestic
    violence and alcohol related problems.

    The coalition commissioned the Munro Review which has recently been
    published and is pretty damning of the current system of supporting
    families and children. The main criticism is too much top down
    regulation and not enough freedom for those at the front line to make
    decisions based on local need. If local authorities could divert the
    funds they are *compelled* to spend on bureaucracy into direct work with
    families then we might stand a chance of reducing the 4 million children
    still living in poverty[2].

    What has the coalition set up to manage the changes? A quango called the
    Social Work Reform Board which is making ... top down policy

    Whilst the rhetoric of the culture of poverty thesis, with its notion of
    the deserving and undeserving poor remains in vogue, I don't hold any
    hope of this government bringing about change that narrows income
    inequality *and* removes significant numbers of families from living in

    [1] admittedly, some of that is caused by other agencies being
    inappropriately risk averse
    [2] http://www.endchildpoverty.org.uk/why-end-child-poverty/key-facts
    [3] where poverty is not just a factor of income
    wessie, Jun 11, 2011
  14. wessie

    Stephen Guest

    Stephen, Jun 11, 2011
  15. wessie

    Stephen Guest

    All of which seems to be suggesting people shouldn't take
    responsibility for themselves and their families and that the state
    should provide.

    I'm willing to accept that hoping for people to exercise some self
    reliance may be a little idealistic but I still don't think that the
    assumption that the state provides is a good one to base a society
    on. Let alone a life, do these people have no pride?
    Stephen, Jun 11, 2011
  16. wessie

    wessie Guest

    It's a fact. As stated, there are 4 million children living in poverty.
    Many of them will do okay despite their fucked up parents. A significant
    proportion won't unless there is some sort of intervention. If you want
    those children to become productive adults on your terms then you are
    going to have to contribute to the resources to bring about change.
    Those resources are not just about cash.
    They have a different set of values to the ones you live to. The notion
    of planning or consequences of actions is alien to many of the people I
    work with. Some people, including many of Cameron's peers, would have
    that this is a cultural problem brought about by the people themselves.
    People certainly *appear* to choose a lifestyle. Most social scientists
    would argue that the causes are structural in that "the system" creates
    the dependency as there is no exit route. As PC has stated, just
    switching off the money supply won't make the problem go away, just
    shift it elsewhere unless there are clear exit strategies.

    I see the latest initiative is to hand over cash to a bunch of
    corporations to get people back to work. Supposedly they will be paid on
    results. I guess that system will certainly create jobs: civil servants
    to collect all of the data, checking each person remains in a job at 6,
    12 & 18 month intervals and making the incremental payments to the
    contractors. Well thought out that one: the civil servant who dreamed up
    the scheme will be getting plenty of Xmas cards this year from

    Incidentally, I've just read the prospectus for this new The Work
    Programme. An 18 page document: it does not mention the word "child"
    anywhere. Yet the lack of affordable child care provision is one of the
    biggest reasons given by parents for not going to work.
    wessie, Jun 11, 2011
  17. No, there aren't.

    There are a number of figures, depending on who you consult (Barnardo's,
    unsurprisingly, is the highest I could find: 4 million.

    Save The Children's figure is 25% lower, and STC says 1,5 million in
    'severe poverty', which it defines as an income under £12,220/year for a
    couple with one child.

    Poverty.org says 3.9 million in low-income households: 60% or less of
    the national average wage. That's basically Barnardo's figure, and I'd
    not call 'low-income' poverty.

    There seem to be around 12 million 16 year-olds and under in the UK and
    by your figures, one in four of them is poverty-stricken. Once again, I
    don't buy that.
    The Older Gentleman, Jun 11, 2011
  18. wessie

    wessie Guest

    (The Older Gentleman) wrote in
    look up "index of multiple deprivation" - poverty, as you say, is not just
    a factor of income. In Wales, the index used by WAG is a composit of 31
    separate variables. List on p2

    The 1 in 4 figure is about right. Here's an extract from the literature
    review of my dissertation.

    "8. Spatial variation: child poverty is highest in North East England
    (28%) with Wales, Inner London and West Midlands close behind (27%). Some
    Lower Layer Super Output Areas, (LSOA) have zero children at risk, others
    have 100%. Child poverty varies widely by local authority e.g. Tower
    Hamlets 66.4%, South Northampton 5.9%.
    The figures quoted above are from the latest data available, relating to
    2007/8 and published in DWP (2009)."

    DWP (2009) Households below average income, An analysis of the income
    distribution 1994/95-2007/08, online at http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/hbai.asp
    wessie, Jun 11, 2011
  19. wessie

    wessie Guest

    See reply to TOG ref. index of multiple deprivation
    Good for you. It's the shear volume of people living on that sort of
    income that bothers me i.e. the ever widening income inequality.
    and you were the one saying people should be less selfish :)
    Okay. Let's return to the 1970s and have loads of child assessment
    centres full of children from unworthy parents. More tax please.
    It could be. You have to make the jobs worthwhile by making transport or
    housing affordable - we're back to Paul's point again. You might be able
    to afford to commute to Newbury/London for a job but someone on £6ph
    won't be able to from a third of the distance.
    They used to but they hadn't had their benefits cut and had to find a
    wessie, Jun 11, 2011
  20. wessie

    M J Carley Guest

    Of course, we are assuming thejobs are there to be had.
    M J Carley, Jun 11, 2011
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