effective opposition

Discussion in 'UK Motorcycles' started by wessie, Jun 9, 2011.

  1. wessie

    Ace Guest

    Now _that_ is irrelevant. for the term 'poverty' to be taken seriously
    in the context you used, it, it must be understandable as some sort of
    absolute, as Burnt is saying.
    Ace, Jun 13, 2011
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  2. wessie

    DozynSleepy Guest

    That sounds pretty outrageous, are you sure the other three don't have
    jobs or some independent wealth ?

    I've found myself seriously considering whether the cost of running my
    car is worth it for the convenience and I've got a pretty good salary [1].

    [1] Just what is a big salary ?
    DozynSleepy, Jun 13, 2011
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  3. wessie

    M J Carley Guest

    So when it leads to things you don't like, you call it `social
    engineering' and when it leads to things you like, you call it
    `inheritance provisions'.
    M J Carley, Jun 13, 2011
  4. wessie

    M J Carley Guest

    Other way round: poverty only makes sense as a relative
    concept. Otherwise, we would be saying that nobody is poor because
    Louis XVI didn't have a Gameboy.
    M J Carley, Jun 13, 2011
  5. wessie

    wessie Guest

    Taken seriously by what subset of the population?

    TOG has already mentioned 2 NGOs who use the relative poverty definition in
    their literature when speaking about child poverty in the UK.
    wessie, Jun 13, 2011
  6. wessie

    Hog. Guest

    Err no, I don't know how you can in any way construe that from what I've

    Real improvement can *only* be made by improving the commercial and
    corporate environment and therefor the working experience (and availability
    of). Anything else is folly.

    Which is not to say there are no things which must be addressed by social
    engineering. Of course there are many things. Employment and income are
    not however included.

    A good example of the other. I'd vote for a suspension of house building
    except for that designed and priced to be available to the average working
    Joe(y). Land being subject to compulsory purchase at an appropriate price,
    where necessary and in locations as necessary.. And a mandated volume of
    housing coming through. And same for Housing Associations. For say the next
    15 years. Builders would (have to) respond appropriately. And in fact the
    (modular) concrete technology already exists, but the market only wants to
    build £400k+ houses.
    Hog., Jun 13, 2011
  7. wessie

    Ace Guest

    The great unwashed, of course. The people you were speaking to. Hence
    my comment about ;context'.
    Irrelevant again.
    Ace, Jun 13, 2011
  8. wessie

    wessie Guest

    That's more a weakness on their side. The concept of relative poverty
    exists and is a factor in the policies made by various levels of
    government. The great unwashed, as you refer to them, need to get used to
    this political reality as apparently, for one of them at least, there isn't
    the motivation to get involved to bring about the changes they covet.
    wessie, Jun 13, 2011
  9. Yes. TOG is not sure whether their definitions really stack up. It
    strikes me as being akin to people classifying religious hatred as
    'racism', when it's actually something rather different.
    [email protected], Jun 13, 2011
  10. wessie

    crn Guest

    Take a look at the real world -
    Anything more than shelter, sanitation, clean water, adequate clothing
    and adequate food is something to aspire and work for, anything below
    this standard is poverty.

    The so-called "poor" in the UK and in Europe generally have never
    had it so good.
    crn, Jun 13, 2011
  11. wessie

    M J Carley Guest

    What do you mean by `adequate' and why do you think of poverty as
    being purely material?
    M J Carley, Jun 13, 2011
  12. wessie

    wessie Guest

    TOG, Steve & Ace sitting in a tree, with crn.

    Who'd have thought?
    wessie, Jun 13, 2011
  13. wessie

    Ace Guest

    Not I. And you're wrong anyway, if you think I agree with crn's point.
    But I do specifically take issue with your assertion that 25% of the
    population (or children, or whatever) live in 'poverty'. It's clearly
    a nonsense, and the fact that government and NGOs misuse the term
    doesn't justify you doing so too.

    Real poverty _does_ exist, and needs to be addressed, but expanding
    the definition in this way serves only to divert attention from those
    really in need.
    Ace, Jun 13, 2011
  14. wessie

    crn Guest

    There are maybe a few tens of thousands in the UK in REAL poverty,
    often sleeping rough or in squats. Most of these have substance abuse
    and/or mental health issues. This small but important group is not
    receiving the help needed. Money that is currently buying 40 inch
    televisions for the workshy should be used to target these people
    with proper treatment, targeted education, and in some cases
    proper long term residential care for the mentally ill who were
    thrown out of residential mental care in the name of "care in the
    crn, Jun 13, 2011
  15. I'd suspect there are rather more than this, actually.
    [email protected], Jun 13, 2011
  16. wessie

    Hog. Guest

    Well you can chop it up as fine as you might like but my argument was
    grounded and the differentiation is clear enough. And there needs to be
    clear division.
    Hog., Jun 13, 2011
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