Fast Guided Tours.

How long will this curse last, do you reckon?

 

70 or 80 years, maybe?

 

This year's Sedan run was done, for me, in the pissing rain (we were on
the earlier boat), and I can't remember if I was riding with anyone
else or alone. I was on the Trophy, and as you suggest, it wa sone of
those rare occasions when you're perfectly settled in the groove. And
the rain didn't matter.

At one point I was barreling down that bit on the edge of the Ardennes,
just feeling nicely calm and relaxed, and looked down and found I was
doing well over the ton. At that point I thought: "This is really a bit
silly" and kncoked a few mph off, but the point is that it didn't
*feel* fast. Just a nice ride.

ISTR that lots of people were riding at Silly Mph on that occasion, and
we alerted Plod, so by the time the second boatload came along, the
gendarmes were out in force )

 

Shit.

 

On that subject, any thoughts on a Spring French Run 2007?

 

That's like saying that this year's Christmas will be in December!

 

Precisely. Just dropping your bike is one thing. Being involved in a
shunt with another participant could probably be sorted out without too
much trouble so long as they were the type to accept the consequences.
The problem would be if a participant lost it while trying to keep up
with the leader and ploughed in to a group kids waiting at the side of
the road for the school bus. When the local plod start making enquiries
the organiser would have some difficult questions to answer.

I suppose it depends on just what the participants are offered as part
of their contract with the organiser. The 'guide' situation is the
tricky bit. Do you get a 'road book' or any clue as to the route, or do
you have to rely on follow my leader? If you have effectively paid
someone to guide you, that guide will legally owe you a duty of care
IMHO, and they will be very unwise unless they have got you to sign
something before hand to say you won't hold them responsible whatever
happens.

The VCF have 'ride outs' as part of their AGM weekend (as well as a
track day). You get a choice of 'road book' and small informal groups
follow one of the various routes on offer. No money involved, nobody
officially leading, but still great fun.


--

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

 

That would explain why you offered such weak arguments in response to
my questions.

Incidently I just re-read the thread in question to make sure there
wasn't any (deliberate) trolling from me (there sometimes is) and I
noticed that while arguing that the texts that support Islam, Judeism
and Christianity are clear and unambiguous you pointed out that Judas,
after knowing Jesus for 3 years was unclear about Jesus's purpose and
betrayed him to force his hand. [1]

If people can misunderstand with 3 years of first hand contact with the
Messiah to the point where they get him killed what f**king hope do the
rest of us have?

[1] ...and this is only one of the three popular explanations for
Judas's mistake. A clear text?

 

<g>

Aye. Who got there first, eh? EH?

 

The best number for a dinner party is two: myself and a damn good head
waiter.
Nubar Gulbenkian

 

Posting going up in a few minutes

 

says...

No, he was standing by the side of a dead F650 because it was made by
BMW. Do you know nothing, man?

--
Lozzo
Triumph Daytona 955i SE (Black with added black bits)
GSF600SW (broked)
'I do not object to people looking at their watches when I am speaking.
But I strongly object when they start shaking them to make certain they
are still going.' William Norman Birkett, 1st Baron Birkett, Oct 1960.

 

Actually, it was made by Aprilia & Rotax...

 

wessie says...

Never let facts get in the way of a piss-take.

--
Lozzo
Triumph Daytona 955i SE (Black with added black bits)
GSF600SW (broked)
'I do not object to people looking at their watches when I am speaking.
But I strongly object when they start shaking them to make certain they
are still going.' William Norman Birkett, 1st Baron Birkett, Oct 1960.

 

I wouldn't expect you to get it - but the test for any negligence action is
whether or not there was a breach of a duty of care, not whether any injury
was caused as a direct result of another [1]. Doing what you call "admin"
work for a fee isn't that simple - who is it for? For a track day, for
example, is it the track day organisers? They'll probably say any such
person doesn't act for them. Is it for the person booking? Or are they a
freestanding quasi-organiser?

Anyway, I'm not saying such admin person would be liable, rather that they
would be in the frame assuming they had any assets. At the very least they'd
want a policy to cover the cost of defending themselves. You can't predict
how they could be in the frame - they may well not in most cases, but there
could be examples where they are. All I'm pointing out is that there risk.

[1] See, in the case of someone else taking you off, you might have more
chance of recovery from the track day organiser that say from the rider who
punted you off.

 

It's certainly an important factor, but not perhaps the most significant
consideration. See, one way of looking at it, purely from the consumer end,
is, who am i paying? E.g. when you buy a holiday from a travel agent, that
agent may not supply the holiday themselves buy you are contracting with the
agent, not the holiday company. Also, payment doesn;t need to be cash - you
can be rewarded by other means, e.g. commissions etc

 

If that is all they do they owe no duty of care. If, however, their
services include a 'guide', then I suspect that the guide does, and the
organiser who provides the guide does. Would you expect a ski guide who
took you off-piste to owe a duty of care? Well you probably wouldn't,
but many would , and more likely their dependants or family would if the
guide lead you to ski off a precipice.

A track day is not a race and the participants are not taking part under
the provisions of an ACU licence and are not covered by ACU insurance.

Having been Secretary of the Meeting for a couple of speed hill climbs I
know the amount of paper work that has to be done if someone gets
injured competing, even when there is obviously no possibility of
another rider being involved.

Your approach to track days is the correct one. That was the culture in
the early days when the Morini Riders Club arranged some of the first
track days ever to be organised. Unfortunately, as Krusty pointed out,
today we have a blame culture. The ambulance chasing lawyers will be all
to happy to go after the organisers for a cut of any claim, if they can
see a loophole in the indemnity or a failure to follow procedures.

We need an expert in contract law to rule on whether someone just block
booking track day places owes a duty of care to the people they book
for. They could be regarded as a sub-contractor if receiving any reward
I suppose, but I would have thought their liability would pretty easily
be transferred to the primary organiser.

--

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

 

Sir has never ridden the PCH (Hwy 1) then.

 

We at the Ski Club have spent a lot of time trying to establish our
own 'duty of care'. As we're not paid, and the service is open to all
members of the club, we've never been successfully sued by someone
having an accident while skiing with a club rep, but it's been close.

One case that dragged on for several years was where an English skier
(a lawyer) explicitly ignored the leader's instructions and came to
grief. He dragged it through the US courts for ages before it was
finally thrown out.

But it does demonstrate that, however clear it may be that we're not
paid professionals and that members ski with us at their own risk,
there's always someone who will try to take the piss. We are now
required to read out, and get members to sign, a participation
statement just to make this fact even clearer, although like most such
things it can't be viewed as a legally binding disclaimer.

Of course, if the leader was at fault and caused an accident there
could be a case against him based on his negligence. And quite right
too, although AFAIIA it's never happened either. But that's another
issue entirely.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

My analogy was not perfect admittedly. I can still see, however, some
egotistical rider, of an unfamiliar hired bike, on their first day out
stuffing it whilst trying to keep up.

I am sure Krusty and the organiser know what they are doing and ride
within their limits. They could not be held responsible for the
unforeseen public roads equivalent of such hazards: loose gravel, pot
holes etc. These are, though, billed as 'fast' tours. Presumably the
participants are under strict instructions to 'read the road'
themselves, not follow the leader if in doubt and to fall back in to a
slower group if the going gets to hot for them. There may just be one
though who has a point to prove and doesn't heed the advice, then bins
it. As I said before, if it is just him and his bike that are damaged
they probably won't be much pressure to 'sue'. If, however, they were to
take out someone else as a result (particularly another road user not on
the tour or a pedestrian) I can see their insurance company making
investigations into exactly what they were doing. We all know how eager
insurance companies are to find a way out of paying. Then potentially,
effectively uninsured rider may try and claim off the guide/organisers.

I'm not saying I agree with it, just that someone organising tours of
this type needs to have done their homework on legal liability and would
be well advised to carry public liability insurance.


--

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+