Fast Guided Tours.

Discussion in 'UK Motorcycles' started by Krusty, Nov 8, 2006.

  1. Krusty

    CT Guest

    How long will this curse last, do you reckon?
     
    CT, Nov 9, 2006
    #41
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  2. Krusty

    ogden Guest

    70 or 80 years, maybe?
     
    ogden, Nov 9, 2006
    #42
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  3. Krusty

    TOG Guest

    This year's Sedan run was done, for me, in the pissing rain (we were on
    the earlier boat), and I can't remember if I was riding with anyone
    else or alone. I was on the Trophy, and as you suggest, it wa sone of
    those rare occasions when you're perfectly settled in the groove. And
    the rain didn't matter.

    At one point I was barreling down that bit on the edge of the Ardennes,
    just feeling nicely calm and relaxed, and looked down and found I was
    doing well over the ton. At that point I thought: "This is really a bit
    silly" and kncoked a few mph off, but the point is that it didn't
    *feel* fast. Just a nice ride.

    ISTR that lots of people were riding at Silly Mph on that occasion, and
    we alerted Plod, so by the time the second boatload came along, the
    gendarmes were out in force :))
     
    TOG, Nov 9, 2006
    #43
  4. Krusty

    CT Guest

    Shit.
     
    CT, Nov 9, 2006
    #44
  5. Krusty

    Jeremy Guest

    On that subject, any thoughts on a Spring French Run 2007?
     
    Jeremy, Nov 9, 2006
    #45
  6. Krusty

    CT Guest

    That's like saying that this year's Christmas will be in December!
     
    CT, Nov 9, 2006
    #46
  7. Krusty

    Pete Fisher Guest

    Precisely. Just dropping your bike is one thing. Being involved in a
    shunt with another participant could probably be sorted out without too
    much trouble so long as they were the type to accept the consequences.
    The problem would be if a participant lost it while trying to keep up
    with the leader and ploughed in to a group kids waiting at the side of
    the road for the school bus. When the local plod start making enquiries
    the organiser would have some difficult questions to answer.

    I suppose it depends on just what the participants are offered as part
    of their contract with the organiser. The 'guide' situation is the
    tricky bit. Do you get a 'road book' or any clue as to the route, or do
    you have to rely on follow my leader? If you have effectively paid
    someone to guide you, that guide will legally owe you a duty of care
    IMHO, and they will be very unwise unless they have got you to sign
    something before hand to say you won't hold them responsible whatever
    happens.

    The VCF have 'ride outs' as part of their AGM weekend (as well as a
    track day). You get a choice of 'road book' and small informal groups
    follow one of the various routes on offer. No money involved, nobody
    officially leading, but still great fun.


    --

    +-------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Pete Fisher at Home: |
    | Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
    | Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 |
    +-------------------------------------------------------------+
     
    Pete Fisher, Nov 9, 2006
    #47
  8. That would explain why you offered such weak arguments in response to
    my questions.

    Incidently I just re-read the thread in question to make sure there
    wasn't any (deliberate) trolling from me (there sometimes is) and I
    noticed that while arguing that the texts that support Islam, Judeism
    and Christianity are clear and unambiguous you pointed out that Judas,
    after knowing Jesus for 3 years was unclear about Jesus's purpose and
    betrayed him to force his hand. [1]

    If people can misunderstand with 3 years of first hand contact with the
    Messiah to the point where they get him killed what f**king hope do the
    rest of us have?

    [1] ...and this is only one of the three popular explanations for
    Judas's mistake. A clear text?
     
    toad_oftoadhall, Nov 9, 2006
    #48
  9. Krusty

    prawn Guest


    <g>

    Aye. Who got there first, eh? EH?
     
    prawn, Nov 9, 2006
    #49
  10. Krusty

    Charlie Guest

    The best number for a dinner party is two: myself and a damn good head
    waiter.
    Nubar Gulbenkian
     
    Charlie, Nov 9, 2006
    #50
  11. Krusty

    TOG Guest

    Posting going up in a few minutes
     
    TOG, Nov 9, 2006
    #51
  12. Krusty

    Lozzo Guest

    says...
    No, he was standing by the side of a dead F650 because it was made by
    BMW. Do you know nothing, man?

    --
    Lozzo
    Triumph Daytona 955i SE (Black with added black bits)
    GSF600SW (broked)
    'I do not object to people looking at their watches when I am speaking.
    But I strongly object when they start shaking them to make certain they
    are still going.' William Norman Birkett, 1st Baron Birkett, Oct 1960.
     
    Lozzo, Nov 9, 2006
    #52
  13. Krusty

    wessie Guest

    Actually, it was made by Aprilia & Rotax...
     
    wessie, Nov 9, 2006
    #53
  14. Krusty

    Lozzo Guest

    wessie says...
    Never let facts get in the way of a piss-take.

    --
    Lozzo
    Triumph Daytona 955i SE (Black with added black bits)
    GSF600SW (broked)
    'I do not object to people looking at their watches when I am speaking.
    But I strongly object when they start shaking them to make certain they
    are still going.' William Norman Birkett, 1st Baron Birkett, Oct 1960.
     
    Lozzo, Nov 10, 2006
    #54
  15. Krusty

    Kiran Guest

    I wouldn't expect you to get it - but the test for any negligence action is
    whether or not there was a breach of a duty of care, not whether any injury
    was caused as a direct result of another [1]. Doing what you call "admin"
    work for a fee isn't that simple - who is it for? For a track day, for
    example, is it the track day organisers? They'll probably say any such
    person doesn't act for them. Is it for the person booking? Or are they a
    freestanding quasi-organiser?

    Anyway, I'm not saying such admin person would be liable, rather that they
    would be in the frame assuming they had any assets. At the very least they'd
    want a policy to cover the cost of defending themselves. You can't predict
    how they could be in the frame - they may well not in most cases, but there
    could be examples where they are. All I'm pointing out is that there risk.

    [1] See, in the case of someone else taking you off, you might have more
    chance of recovery from the track day organiser that say from the rider who
    punted you off.
     
    Kiran, Nov 10, 2006
    #55
  16. Krusty

    Kiran Guest

    It's certainly an important factor, but not perhaps the most significant
    consideration. See, one way of looking at it, purely from the consumer end,
    is, who am i paying? E.g. when you buy a holiday from a travel agent, that
    agent may not supply the holiday themselves buy you are contracting with the
    agent, not the holiday company. Also, payment doesn;t need to be cash - you
    can be rewarded by other means, e.g. commissions etc
     
    Kiran, Nov 10, 2006
    #56
  17. Krusty

    Pete Fisher Guest

    If that is all they do they owe no duty of care. If, however, their
    services include a 'guide', then I suspect that the guide does, and the
    organiser who provides the guide does. Would you expect a ski guide who
    took you off-piste to owe a duty of care? Well you probably wouldn't,
    but many would , and more likely their dependants or family would if the
    guide lead you to ski off a precipice.
    A track day is not a race and the participants are not taking part under
    the provisions of an ACU licence and are not covered by ACU insurance.

    Having been Secretary of the Meeting for a couple of speed hill climbs I
    know the amount of paper work that has to be done if someone gets
    injured competing, even when there is obviously no possibility of
    another rider being involved.

    Your approach to track days is the correct one. That was the culture in
    the early days when the Morini Riders Club arranged some of the first
    track days ever to be organised. Unfortunately, as Krusty pointed out,
    today we have a blame culture. The ambulance chasing lawyers will be all
    to happy to go after the organisers for a cut of any claim, if they can
    see a loophole in the indemnity or a failure to follow procedures.

    We need an expert in contract law to rule on whether someone just block
    booking track day places owes a duty of care to the people they book
    for. They could be regarded as a sub-contractor if receiving any reward
    I suppose, but I would have thought their liability would pretty easily
    be transferred to the primary organiser.

    --

    +-------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Pete Fisher at Home: |
    | Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
    | Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 |
    +-------------------------------------------------------------+
     
    Pete Fisher, Nov 10, 2006
    #57
  18. Krusty

    muddy cat Guest

    Sir has never ridden the PCH (Hwy 1) then.
     
    muddy cat, Nov 10, 2006
    #58
  19. Krusty

    Ace Guest

    We at the Ski Club have spent a lot of time trying to establish our
    own 'duty of care'. As we're not paid, and the service is open to all
    members of the club, we've never been successfully sued by someone
    having an accident while skiing with a club rep, but it's been close.

    One case that dragged on for several years was where an English skier
    (a lawyer) explicitly ignored the leader's instructions and came to
    grief. He dragged it through the US courts for ages before it was
    finally thrown out.

    But it does demonstrate that, however clear it may be that we're not
    paid professionals and that members ski with us at their own risk,
    there's always someone who will try to take the piss. We are now
    required to read out, and get members to sign, a participation
    statement just to make this fact even clearer, although like most such
    things it can't be viewed as a legally binding disclaimer.

    Of course, if the leader was at fault and caused an accident there
    could be a case against him based on his negligence. And quite right
    too, although AFAIIA it's never happened either. But that's another
    issue entirely.

    --
    _______
    ..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
    \`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
    `\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
    `\|/`
    `
     
    Ace, Nov 10, 2006
    #59
  20. Krusty

    Pete Fisher Guest

    My analogy was not perfect admittedly. I can still see, however, some
    egotistical rider, of an unfamiliar hired bike, on their first day out
    stuffing it whilst trying to keep up.

    I am sure Krusty and the organiser know what they are doing and ride
    within their limits. They could not be held responsible for the
    unforeseen public roads equivalent of such hazards: loose gravel, pot
    holes etc. These are, though, billed as 'fast' tours. Presumably the
    participants are under strict instructions to 'read the road'
    themselves, not follow the leader if in doubt and to fall back in to a
    slower group if the going gets to hot for them. There may just be one
    though who has a point to prove and doesn't heed the advice, then bins
    it. As I said before, if it is just him and his bike that are damaged
    they probably won't be much pressure to 'sue'. If, however, they were to
    take out someone else as a result (particularly another road user not on
    the tour or a pedestrian) I can see their insurance company making
    investigations into exactly what they were doing. We all know how eager
    insurance companies are to find a way out of paying. Then potentially,
    effectively uninsured rider may try and claim off the guide/organisers.

    I'm not saying I agree with it, just that someone organising tours of
    this type needs to have done their homework on legal liability and would
    be well advised to carry public liability insurance.


    --

    +-------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Pete Fisher at Home: |
    | Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
    | Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 |
    +-------------------------------------------------------------+
     
    Pete Fisher, Nov 10, 2006
    #60
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