Germany (Spoilers)

It did some things better and some worse, or perhaps it was the riders.
Whether Hayden's better on the brakes, or Pedrosa's bike doesn't brake as
well, who knows. Fact is that Hayden had the brakes on Pedrosa, Pedrosa had
cornerspeed on Hayden. Interestingly, the same was quite dramatically
visible when Pedrosa followed Rossi: he'd fall behind when braking, would
catch up with cornerspeed. Sometimes he'd come off slow off the turns
compared to Rossi, sometimes he'd stay right there. Melandri seemed to be
the only one able to stick to Rossi like a tick quite consistently.

I think we're quick to put it all down to "the bike" and not consider setup
preferences and riding style sufficiently.

All in all, I think was able to do what he set out to do without being
limited by the bike. I am not saying he had a bike advantage at all. But I
doubt he had a disavantage - he had not kept up with guys going full tilt if
that was the case.

....pablo

 

No Way. Rossi allways fight for a victory as you more or less say yourself
below. For some reason he manages to stay hungy after a number of
chapionships when there is little more to prove. There has been so many
close races when Rossi does his final move and take the victory, and often
enough it looks like he does so by share will, or hunger for victory.

But Hayden said that.

There are major mistakes and there are smaller mistakes. You don't wait for
the major ones, but small ones happen often enough, specially on the last
lap, and he could very well have gained by a kamilaze late braking of
Melandri like in the previous race.

/MBE

 

The 250 race was excellent. Lorenzo looked extremely strong early on, but
then De Angelis looked unbeatable for a while... and then, woo-hoo... that's
what happens in 250s...

 

Would he?

The point is that unless more bad luck comes Rossi's way he'll eat up those
points. It's not like the two has had a similar season, batteling out for
the lower podiums. If that was the case any change in the straegy would be a
misstake. Hayden know all this and thats probably why he was quite
diapointed after the race. He needed that win.

/MBE

 

Rossi *is* different. I am not at disputing he is in a different category.
At this point in time he races against legends and for the history books,
and less against the other riders on the grid... kinda extremely put.

My point is he wasn't just laying back. He was right there in the leaders
group. If he was just passively racing for fourth he'd kept more of a safe
distance to the first 3, don't you think? By staying there, he was trying to
actively up the pressure on others and force a mistake, too.

Yeah, he *was* waiting. But just like there are major and minor mistakes,
there's passive and active racing for points. My point is Hayden wasn't just
happy with racing for fourth.

....pablo

 

He ran too wide on the last corner, if he'd kept it tight he may have got
the win, easy in hindsite I guess

Paul

 

to a certain limit.
A sigle incident are often bad luck, 10 of them tells you that you for one
reason or the other constantly are at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Looking at the others, and especially Rossi, there has mostly been a string
of single incidents, or single problems if different kinds. A single
mechanical failure, one single incident where he was taken out, the basic QP
problems, the big accident where most of Haydns competitors were wiped
off....
The only pattern in this is that of all the top riders he's the one escaping
all of it. Thats their bad luck -> his good luck.
And then of cource we can discuss if the incidents can be tracked back to
the others choises along the way, but as I said, I can't see patterns here.
On the other hand, If Rossi's bike continue to fail, he continue to crash,
and continue to be taken out by others then there must be a pattern where he
and his team doesn't prepare good enough. Thats creating you own bad luck.

Of cource.

No. He's been riding very well to, but no bad luck for that guy so far.

**** ups reflect on them, yes.
Race incidents like when rossi, melandri, capirossi, tamada were taken out
on different occations do not, neither do a single machine failure.
And to some degree, someones **** ups are others fortune, yes?

Yes, did I say anything else?

Where would haydens consistency brought him last year, asuming he was as
fast as now. Right about 2. spot, closer to 50 points below rossi? Of
cource, last year Rossi were consitent too, in that way you are right
And of course it's not all about luck. As I said _in the previous post_ ,
with out the incidents we have seen with the other top riders, he would
still have a lot of those podiums.

Not according to Rossi; there were no bad luck, no injury or anything that
stoped the team from taking pole, the bike were simply not any better.
Actually he was quite happy making it to 11th, almost losing it time after
time on the q-tires.

/MBE

 

But I thought that except for Laguna Seca, this was _the_ track for Hayden?
Both his own reaction after the race, and others expectations before the
race point in the direction that anything but 1st would be a disapointment.

/MBE

 

He was keeping up with a very fast group, and with an aggressive team-mate
all over him...

Yeah, but I think it was an off chance anyhow. I think Rossi and Melandri
overall had the pace on hayden and Pedrosa, who simply could keep up towards
the end. melandri seemed the only one that was able to stay glued to Rossi's
rear tire for a while. I think that's why Rossi went for the classic
intelligence-gathering move of letting him by and studying him for a round.

....pablo

 

I think the fact others q'd faster was an indication that this year things
were a tad different for Hayden. I think hayden is great, I think he's
racing very smartly... I just don't think he wins consistently on equal to
slightly superior machinery. It's a bit of a mistery. Typically someone able
to land on the podium so often should be able to win more races. Well, he's
been progressing methodically, I would not be too surprised if that's the
next step eventually.

....pablo

 

About time, too. Tamada has shown *nothing* for a while. He seems to have a
decent team infrastructure, and has made very little of it. Another one who
got overwhelmed by pressure and expectations. Lower them enough and he may
be back showing prior occasional form.

Which prompts the question again... what's going on with Edwards this year?
He's barely hanging on the the ability to deliver top 10 finishes
consistently, which is very, very odd. He's better than that. Bayliss
syndrome? His "portrait" on MotoGP is interesting, especially when he goes
about the differences between MotoGP and WSB, saying that in MotoGP -unlike
in Superbikes- you're alwasy forced to ride around some issue because
whatever you do will limit the bike somewhere else at the pace you're forced
to run at.

Luck may win you a race or two. Not a title against the best in the world.
You still have to be a damn fine and deserving rider.

 

*Collectively* they are. You kisunderstand what that means. Just because a
few individual riders here and there may deserve to get a shot and may be
more deserving than a few of the riders in the MotoGP grid doesn't mean any
other series comes close from a *collective* point of few. It *is* the best
series in the world, rider wise, by a mile, even though it may not always be
the most entertaining.

....pablo

 

And that's all it is for me, too. In fact, this group would be a snoozder if
all we did was agree and go "yes, indeed!" all the time.

 

You just used what is perhaps the best word I have ever seen. Maximum
respect.

 

I think your confusing things - there are many element involved in getting
a ride in GP (desire, travel restrictions, sponsers, politics, etc)
Not getting into a debate the relative pros/cons of this, you are arguing a
different point. Your arguments here are "deserving a ride in MotoGP" the
original comment/comparison was "best riders in the world"

Bruce

 

Actually you are confusing things, since the original argument was about
*collectively* the best riders in the world. The best natural rider in the
world may be competing in the national scooter series in Tibet for all we
know. It still does not make Tibet's scooter series the best collective of
riders in the world, or we'd seen more of them. believe it or not teams in
MotoGP like to win, and they will try to recruit *anyone* who is a
*guarantee* to win. Mladin looks great in AMA. Honestly, in MotoGP he didn't
look like the greatest talent there was - and yeah, he was younger, but not
as young as Pedrosa or Rossi or Hayden or a score of others, for that
matter.As to the others... Spies or Roger Hayden... I *truly* think it
ludicrous to think they're in any way more deserving than Lorenzo or
Dovizioso or any other score of riders being bred within the world series.
It'd be nice to see them there, of course... but I think it's utter wishful
thinking tye'd be guaranteed to provide superior results to a much maligned
Checa. It's questionable.

All in all, *COLLECTIVELY* there is littel doubt MotoGP represent the best
series in the world, and it's not even remotely close.

....pablo

 

We know who the best is. Great as Mladin is, he's does nothing that remotely
indicates he's at a truly legendary level. As to the other riders, I agree:
nothing whatsoever indicates they're among the top 15. Which doesn't mean
the top 15 are all in MotoGP, the talent level in WSB is also deep. AMA is
undoubtedly shallower these days. Spies... possibly, eventually.

But MotoGP is the best collective. Gusy bthat didn't quite bring it is
MotoGP dominate or do very well elsewhere as a rule, whereas the opposite is
never quite as much of a given.

....pablo

 

Last I checked, he's doing much better in AMA than he ever did in MotoGP.

Again, you just came up with 3 guys, that maybe, possibly, in your
enthusiastic opinion could perhaps make an impact in MotoGP.

 

So, here you are missing the point again - just because it is a national championship
doesn't mean they are meaningless. And comparing one natioanl championship to
another misses the point

No it means the top guys in WSB aren't as good as the top guys in AMA
(and the fact that the spec tire rule keeps everyone in mediocre land)

Bruce

 

A national championship is never as relevant as a world championship, sorry.
Whoever draws a parallel from the "world series" in baseball to motorcycle
racing was dropped on his head as a baby, truly. No one is dimsissed Mladin
and Spies as irrelevant But Mladin's way too old, he would no longer make an
impact in MotoGP. His time is over, in MotoGP, and soon in AMA. Great
talent, shame he didn't showcase it in more venues. As to Spies... he hasn't
even won an AMA championship yet. And to judge by Hayden, while that is a
guarantee of a successful MotoGP career, it is not at all a guarantee for
the triumphant win-it-all thing that is was 20 years ago.

So when it comes to total depth, there's no doubt that MotoGP lead every
other series. No doubt. No one is saying that Cardoso and Hoffmann are
better than Mladin and Spies, hell no, but we're talking averages and depth
here. Not a very few individuals' talent level.

Why tires would make any rider mediocre I would not know. A great rider
stays a great rider whether he rides on a MotoGP spec bike or a Honda
Scrambler, really. And if "the top riders" in AMA (all 4 of them) are better
than the top riders in WSB, well, let them go prove it. It's easy for me to
watch them race on TV and claim "I can do that", too. In sports, to make the
point you got to walk the walk, not run your mouth (like Mladin did in test
earlier this year, which was telling as to who has an inferiority complex,
sorry).

....pablo