Guzzi question re E10

Hi folks,

OK I am still working myself up to a frenzy about getting a Guzzi.

I still love the looks of the V7 Classic, and Angie and I are intending
to take one for a test ride in a couple of weeks time.

I have resigned myself to the fact that I don't actually need stupid
amounts of power (Anyone interested in buying my Street Triple?) but, in
the latest edition of the U.C. mag, someone wrote up a bit about the V7
saying that, and I quote:"Ethanol can NOT be used."

Now, to be sure of not getting an E10 mix seems to limit your choices to
98 octane, expensive petrol.

Since the V7 isn't actually a fire breathing super powerful monster,
this would appear strange.

Anyone got any ideas or comments about this?

Zebee, G-S ?

regards,
CrazyCam

 

Most current bikes will use E10 but it is actually more expensive to
do so.

Certainly the following bikes are cheaper to run on 95 octane;
99 VTR1000F, 01 Cagiva Raptor 1000, 03 SV1000, 08 DR650

Cost per litre means nothing, cost per kilometre is what you need to
work out

 

Exactly. I drove a mate's ute the other day and it was running like a
dog. I asked what fuel he was running on and he said it was E10. If
the engine can't handle it, you end up with a fucked performance
vehicle that will end up costing you more to run. Stoopid.

 

Commenting on your two issues separately:

1. In NSW there are presently at least 4 different unleaded fuels: 92
RON, 95 RON, 98 RON and E10. Caltex make a fifth: E85, but I've never
seen it. 92 RON is to be phased out in 2011, so I suspect the most
likely combination at a 3-fuel bowser in future would be E10, 95 RON, 98
RON. Shell E10 is 94 RON, but I have heard that others are lower.

2. I read somewhere (but can't recall where) that all new motor
vehicles, including motorcycles, manufactured in the euro zone had to be
able to run on either ethanol blended fuel or PULP (95 RON). So the
issue isn't whether the Guzzi *needs* PULP, it's whether its fuel system
can cope with E10, particularly that fuel's nasty habit of absorbing
water - I suspect Moto Guzzi have decided to stick with their old-school
fuel systems. All of the Japanese manufacturers say their bikes can't
run on E10.

 

Well can you tell me why a lot of garages don't sell 95 any more just 92
98 e10?

 

In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:30:41 +1000

May depend where you are.

The ones in Sydney Metro seem to all sell 98 and 95 as well as E10,
out in the country less so as I found on my last trip.

ON the main highways wasn't too hard to find 98, Take the byways and
I found it really hard to get 98 and the Noggy had to settle for 95
which took a little looking for.

Zebee

 

Andrew McKenna wrote:

Hi Andrew.

The trouble is, I have recently seen 91/92 octane labeled as E10, as in
ten percent Ethanol, and also 95 octane, similarly labeled as E10.

I have not (yet) seen 98 octane fuel labeled as E10, but I suspect it
can only be a matter of time.

When E10 first appeared, adding 10 percent Ethanol to 90% 91 octane
fuel, did pretty much give you 94 or 95 octane mixture, but, with the
passage of time, I assume the fuel blenders got better and found cheaper
ways of doing it by reducing the octane rating of the "petrol" prior
adding the ethanol, thus making the 91/92 octane E10.

As you so rightly say, it probably isn't a question of the Guzzi
_needing_ PULP, it is much more likely to be a question of what harm it
may do to the fuel system.

I expected a current model Euro bike to happily use E10, I know my
Street Triple Triumph does.

But, since my original posting, I spoke to the Guzzi sales person who
said that ethanol would "eat" various O-rings and stuff.

I also had a wee google, and found some comments about the V7 having a
plastic petrol tank, which could possibly be unhappy with ethanol. :-O

regards,
CrazyCam

 

I don't know for sure, but I can speculate. Most servos these days have
3-nozzle bowsers for the majority, then maybe a diesel or two, and a
gas. The bowsers might originally been 92 RON, 95 RON, 98 RON, but then
the gubbermint mandated E10 for gubbermint vehicles. I'd guess that when
the servos had to replace the fuel in one of their tanks, they chose the
weakest seller.

 

Not going to chance it with the Trophy
it doesn't like anything but 98

 

My Norge doesn't seem to run as smoothly on 91 octane unleaded (we don't
get E10 down here) as it does on 95 octane (which I normally use) and it
doesn't get as good economy on 91.

I can't feel any difference between 95 and 98/100 and the fuel economy
doesn't vary between 95 and 98/100.

My earlier V11 LeMans ran like shit on 91, ran ok on 95 on cooler days
but needed 98/100 on hot summer days to avoid pinging.

I too have read that Guzzi say no E10 for the V7 but I know no more than
that.

I would suggest running 95 as the fuel economy improvement makes up for
the extra per litre cost.


G-S

 

Motor Cycles

BMW All motorcycles post 1986 are E5 and E10 Suitable.

Buell All motorcycles are E5 and E10 Suitable.

Honda Do not use E10 or E85 in Honda Motorcycles or (ATVs) All Terrain
Vehicles.

Kawasaki Do not use E10 or E85 in Kawasaki Motorcycles or (ATVs) All Terrain
Vehicles.

Piaggio Do not use E10 or E85 in Piaggio Motorcycles.

Polaris All motorcycles post 1986 are E5 and E10 Suitable.

Suzuki Do not use E10 or E85 in Suzuki Motorcycles or (ATVs) All Terrain
Vehicles.

Yamaha Do not use E10 or E85 in Yamaha Motorcycles or (ATVs) All Terrain
Vehicles.

 

My Norge definitely prefers 98 and runs better and further on it than
on 95. It really doesn't like 91 at all.

Don't know about ethanol and I've never seen it in WA. You may
consider that the V7 Special is a small-block Guzzi and probably has
Heron heads, which allows very high compression ratios. I think 12:1
in the original V50. I don't know if that has any bearing on the
ethanol.

Theo

 

Even engines that CAN handle it don't do much on it. The general
consensus is that you get 10% less mileage on E10 so while it's only 3%
or 4% cheaper it's not economical.
It does provide some anti-knock capability though so that may appeal to
some.

 

Kawasaki Australia strongly recommend not using it and the FCAI have
this list.

http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-

The japanese bikes are mostly ok using E5 (europe mix) but are not
generally rated for E10.

The owners manuals may say 'can use ethanol fuel' but I'd bet they mean E5.


G-S

 

In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 12 Aug 2010 03:00:10 -0700 (PDT)

Ditto. The owner's manual says 95 is the minimum.

It also prefers BP Ultimate to Mobil or Shell.

Zebee

 

Fair enough, George.

But, when Mr.Triumph tells me, in the owner's handbook, that I can use
91 octane fuel, and also E10, I don't feel the need to argue.

BTW, as far as I know, for most of the rest of the Triumph range,
Mr.Triumph suggests minimum of 95 octane.

regards,
CrazyCam

 

Kawasaki Z750 2008 Owner's Manual Page 43: 'Your Kawasaki engine is
designed to use only unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of
RON 91.' Doesn't mention ethanol at all.

The Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries solicited advice from the
major vehicle manufacturers selling in Australia as to the suitability
of E5 and E10 fuel for their products. All of the Japanese motorcycle
manufacturers said that E10 was unsuitable, as was E5. The FCAI
dutifully reported the results in the link G-S posted, which has a
publication date of 1 June 2006.

This document from Kawasaki:

http://www.kawasaki.com.au/kawpublic_docs/faqs.pdf

says: 'WARNING: Kawasaki strongly advises that you do not use unleaded
fuel blended with any ethanol content in Kawasaki engines.'

Suzuki has this to say:

' Even though newer Suzukis are engineered to reasonably tolerate use of
ethanol blended fuels as may be outlined in the Owner’s Manual, because
it may potentially impact the proper performance of your motorcycle,
Suzuki Australia does not recommend its use. '

I think my up-to-date advice from the manufacturer's mouth beats your
out-of-date User's Manual hollow.

 

As G-S has already posted:

http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol

and scroll down to the bottom.

 

And how does the alcohol affect some plastic tanks?

 

Ethanol eats fibreglass, and sections of uncatalysed resin are
particularly vulnerable. The dissolved plastic is then fed into your
injectors. This from a American boating web site, summarising problems
with ethanol:

' # Ethanol can break down resins and fillers in fiberglass gas tanks,
causing them to leak.
# Resins leached from fiberglass tanks can go through the fuel system,
sticking to valves and other internal engine parts. These deposits have
caused bent pushrods and have clogged intake valves.
# The alcohol attracts water, leading to increased corrosion in metal
gas tanks.
# Water in the fuel affects the octane and leads to knocking and
decreased performance.
# Ethanol acts as an efficient solvent, gradually cleaning out the
accumulated gunk in fuel tanks and lines, and clogging carburetors.
# Certain rubber gaskets and fuel lines are weakened by ethanol. '