InterRail (yes, it's OT)

True - I guess the Vichy were 'self-ruled' rather than conquered.

Indeed.

Phil.

 

No, it wasn't, until November 1942, as a reaction to Operation Torch
(Google or read on for that). Prior to that, it co-operated nicely
with the Germans in helping 'solve the Jewish question'. Which was
precisely my point.

Otherwise, the government would

Erm that'd be the French Government, in the unoccupied part of France,
then.

Yes, there was.

Rather more than you, I'm afraid.

"Vichy France had legal authority in both the northern zone of France,
which was occupied by the German Wehrmacht, and the unoccupied
southern "free zone", where the regime's administrative center of
Vichy was located. The southern zone remained under Vichy control
until the Allies landed in French North Africa in November 1942."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Hardly any deportations (to death camps, which is what we're talking
here) were made *anywhere* in 1942, because the Wannsee Conference,
which organised them, didn't take place until early 1942. Once again,
your history is flawed. But the round-ups, ghetto-building,
registration, discriminatory laws, persecutions and killings happened
*way* before that.

See above. The Vichy state was not occupied until the *end* of 1942.
This is historical fact.

A certainty, actually.

That'll be a nice chomp, then.

I'm sorry, but rounding up and incarceration in camps came before
deportation, and that came before occupation of the Vichy so-called
"free zone".

And a second *chomp*.

You really, really need to learn a bit of TwenCen history before you
make ill-informed posts like that one.

 

Estonia and Latvia were occupied by the Germans, YTC.

 

But they only helped in the round-ups after they were occupied by the
Germans. Which is why so many Polish Jews went over the border to the
Soviet-occupied zone.

And we weren't discussing pre-war anti-semitism anyway. We were
talking unoccupied countries, under (nominally) independent
governments, collaborating. And ITYF there was only one: Vichy France.

 

snip>

Is that a French or a Jewish "we" that needs no confirmation?

Btw, would Israel exist if the holocaust had never taken place?

 

Or, indeed, a royal one? Oh. hang about, he's not royal, is he? Nor
French, nor Jewish. Sorry, Andy, you've got me there.

 

If we're going to blame Hitler for 9-11 then perhaps looking back
further we should blame the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand
for starting the ball rolling?

 

It was that bloody Julius Ceasar wot started it.

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I've had a look at it and it's great, so I tried to get a price quote
for the French Pyrenees from raileurope.co.uk (the booking link)...

....and it won't make a booking post about mid-November.

Useless.

 

Indeed nothing. France was occupied at the time of Vichy. 'unoccupied
Vichy France' is nonsense and claims of 'I was just trolling' won't wash.

D.

 

LOL ... big, bad bogeyman Des has TOG jumping like a Jack Russell.

Excellent. BTW, I'm both French and Jewish. You might not _like_ that,
but that doesn't change facts.

Now ... jump!!

D.

 

Yeah, fucking Romans. I mean, what did they ever do for us, eh?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Oooh, a map detailing (quote) 'Unoccupied zone of Vichy France (until
November 1942)'

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0850803.html

"The Vichy government. was the regime set up there by Marshal Henri
Pétain in July, 1940, subsequent to the Franco-German armistice of
June 22. Its effective control extended only to unoccupied France and
its colonies"

Oooh, is that the word 'unoccupied' there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_France_(Second_Compiègne)

"The unoccupied third of France was ostensibly left free to be
governed by the French, until a final peace treaty would be
negotiated, and was eventually occupied by Germany in 1942 in Case
Anton."

Oooh, look, it's there, too. Along with the word 'governed'.

Oddly, I can't find any references that state that the Vichy France
(so-called) free zone was occupied until late 1942.

 

Romani ite domum!

 

November I think you will find. Interesting article here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/jewish_deportation_01.shtml

Whilst it is in the best traditions of UKRM to visit the sins of a
'state' on all its citizens, whether willing or not in their complicity,
one ought to point out that there were plenty of French nationals who
resisted the occupation or aided jews. Google CIMADE for example.

Having said that, there are apparently well documented accounts of
antisemitism within the Maquis, who, it must remembered, were not all
one happy united band.

The Museum of Resistance and Deportation in Limoges is pretty open about
the deportations, but then Georges Guingouin was made Mayor for a while.
As he operated around 'the chateau' area, I have read quite a bit about
him. A fascinating if not ,allegedly, totally honourable story:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1656646,00.html
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Oh, of course. As there were anywhere.

 

ROFL. Jeez, it's amazing how every bloody thread can degenerate into a
306b.

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