InterRail (yes, it's OT)

Bwahahaha! As much as I wish people wouldn't repost the i-kike's
drivel, that is a classic own goal.

By the way, on the subject of France "hiding" it's role in the
Holocaust, although the Paris museum is a major part of modern
Holocaust awareness and remembrance, it should be noted that it wasn't
until 1995 that Jacques Chirac officially acknowledged that the modern
French state bore a moral responsibility for the actions of Vichy.
For many years prior to that France had actively sought to distance
itself from Vichy as the official point of view was that the Vichy
regime was an illegal government distinct from the French Republic,
established by traitors under foreign influence.

Good summary of the Holocaust in relation to France here:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005429


..

 

Hard to say as the zionist movement certainly existed pre-1939 but it
was given a massive push by the Holocaust. In 1944 Truman said
"Today, not tomorrow, we must do all that is humanly possible to
provide a haven for all those who can be grasped from the hands of
Nazi butchers. Free lands must be opened to them."

I don't know about that, but he certainly gave eugenics a bad name.

 

"KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!"

 

I'm about to suggest that surely that didn't need a smiley. Or an
exclamation mark

 

Heh. If I was God, I'd definitely be looking to see where I fucked
up.

 

The difference is that the Baltic states *were* occupied and no
"independent" government as in Vichy. Certainly there was deep seated
anti-semitism in these states prewar and a good deal of persecution
but the Nazis, with a good deal of local assistance admittedly,
committed the genocide themselves.

..

 

So was France.

Yeah, about as 'independent' as Iraq.

Still, you 'cover your back' with quotation marks. Good man.

You'd have been right at home.

Nice attempt at shifting the goalposts.

I do not deny the anti-Semitism in 1930s France. I just point out that
from the time the III Republic fell (10 July 1940), France was an occupied
country. So-called 'independence' on the part of Vichy, was no more
genuine than the 'independence' that Bush claims is enjoyed by the Iraqi
government.

Now, onto TOG's post .. this is gonna be fun.

<fx: cracks knuckles>

D.

 

And anti-semitism.

 

Oh look, it's on the Internet, so it must be true, eh?

I could no doubt find some references to the Occupation (which apparently
unlike you, I in fact have studied) from the time it (in reality) began,
i.e. July 1940.

If you're trolling, all I can say is good one, 'cos you're getting me to
respond. If you're actually serious in your claim that the Nazis let
France get on with it, then you're even more stupid than your recent,
obsessive stalking of me would tend to indicate.

France was 'unoccupied' because part of it was _called_ 'unoccupied'? Hey,
maybe you think Soviet Russia was 'communist', too eh?

Fucking idiot. Next time don't make it so easy for me.

D.

 

As is French society as a whole. I don't contest TOG's claim that the
French carried out the deportations. It would take an extraordinary level
of denial, especially on the part of a French Jew, to let France wash its
hands of the events of that period. But France was _occupied_, and whilst
the Nazis did not force the French hand, their openly-professed beliefs in
the inferiority of the Jews, 'freed' if you like, the hand of the
anti-Semitic French government.

So yes, Occupied France deported Jews. I've never denied that.

D.

 

Hit 'send' prematurely there.

France's recognition of her role in the Shoah is recent mainly due to the
fact that until Mitterand popped his clogs, there were still far too many
high-ranking officials with things to hide. I don't know the full role
that Mitterand played in the French 'Shoah', but he probably had his hand
dirtied.

Thatcher's crimes in the Falklands will be talked about after her death.
Bush's status as a bona fide murderer will probably not be aired for
another century or more. It's in the nature of societies to cover their
crimes until the guilty are out of reach of 'human justice'.

D.

 

I blame Michael Palin's new series (which is pretty bloody good).

--
Krusty
www.MuddyStuff.co.uk
Off-Road Classifieds

'02 MV Senna '03 Tiger 955i '96 Tiger '79 Fantic Hiro 250

 

You would agree though that Vichy France's degree of autonomy was a bit
of a 'Quisling' special case ?

As so often on UKRM the discussion is developing in to an argument about
semantics.

Wait a minute. I said that like it's a bad thing. Does that make me
anti-semantic?

--

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

 

Exactly. As I've pointed out, but the iKike refuses to accept, because
it goes against his adopted country, unoccupied Vichy France
collaborated wholesale with the Nazis in rounding up the Jews.

Well documented, and the fact that it was unoccupied until - damn nearly
- 1943, pointed out again and again.

So coupled with his woeful knowledge of 20C history, we have a Holocaust
denier. Now that I find rather ironic.

 

Well, quite. I'm trying to work out what it'll take to make him realise
that the Vichy Government sat in the middle of unoccupied (pre-November
1942) France.

But he's in a state of denial as well as ignorance. Or simple
embarrassment at the realisation that his ignorance and idiocy has been
laid bare. Again.

Of course, it's also worth pointing out that Vichy France fought Allied
(British and American) forces right into 1943. Not really a good track
record, all things considered.

And don't get me started on Bichelonne (he'll have to look him up - I
know you won't).

 

Point of order - that should read '1941', as is obvious from the
context.

 

I read it in the Grauniad in about '86. It's done me proud, but I think
it's nearly worn out.

 

Their 'autonomy' was virtually non-existent. Vichy was an 'arm' of the
Nazi government in the South of France (or to be pedantic about it, south
of the line of demarcation), headed by a Nazi sympathiser who took his
orders from Berlin, and who in fact was never even President (some
'autonomy'!). The III Republic fell with the Armistice in June 1940 and
from that time onwards, France, strictly speaking, no longer existed as a
sovereign state.

That the Vichy régime was declared _a posteriori_ unlawful, had nothing to
do with a desire to 'hide' the truth of what had been done. It was to deny
legitimacy to a regime that no one with an IQ above room temperature,
thought of as anything other than a vassal state betrothed to Nazi Germany,
the acts of which would never have been legal, even under the Constitution
of the III Republic, abrogated on the day the Armistice was signed.

I'm not interested in the semantics of it. TOG made himself look like a
twat again (à la 'why doesn't UK plastic work in unmanned petrol stations
on a Sunday?'), and thinks he can bluster his way out of it by arguing that
what he wrote wasn't in fact what he meant. He thinks that upping the
tone, shouting a bit and peppering his posts with a few random anti-Jewish
remarks and appeals to his mates to help him is going to effect some
miraculous transformation from his presently looking like a bit of a
'know-all-who-knows-****-all' into some sort of WWII guru. **** me, if all
I had to rely on was Andy Wegg, I think _I'd_ be desperate, too.

Nah, 'cos otherwise I'd be a member of a semantic people.

D.

 

'Point out' all you like. You're wrong again, and no number of tantrums is
going to change that.

D.

 

Ah, good, good. Shift the goalposts again. Each time you do, I raise a
fist and shout, 'yessssss!'

Hahaha ...

This is about as much fun as I can have without getting naked.

Yes, Occupied France (i.e. post-1940 France) did those things.

ROFL!!!!

D.