InterRail (yes, it's OT)

"**** the Israelis" is not equal to anti-semitism.

It's possible to dislike the actions of the state of Israel without any
race or religion having any influence.

 

Like many countries, France doesn't really do honesty: it has a law
against denying the German and Turkish genocides but refuses to deal with
what it did to Algeria and to Algerians. Des seems to be French in this
sense.

 

To a certain extent. However, the point is that unoccupied France
collaborated in the round-ups and general persecution. Now you will note
that Des has shifted the goalposts to "deportations", although I have
been careful to point out that the deportations didn't really begin
until well into 1942 (cf: Wannsee Conference).

Unoccupied France (which he doesn't seem to think existed, and which you
and I and everyone else knows *did*) collaborated wholesale with the
early implementation of the Endlosung, well before then, and this makes
France unique.

Nowhere else in unoccupied Europe did this happen. Absolutely nowhere.
Switzerland and Sweden exhibited lamentable displays of anti-Semitism
from time to time, but they did not hand over their own citizens.

In eastern Europe, the same thing happened. In Hungary, the actions of
the Arrow Cross were terrible, as they assisted in the mass
deportations, but this did not happen until *after* Hungary was occupied
in summer 1944.

No. This is about historical fact.

Groan

 

Israel is ~80% Jewish.

'**** the Israelis' really means 'I reject the right of the Jews to a
homeland' because right now, Israel is surrounded by people sworn to
destroy it. If Israel can't defend itself, it will cease to exist.

That's anti-Semitism.

D.

 

Well 'Des' disagrees with any and all of the laws in this country
restricting freedom of speech.

D.

 

Ask my aunt, then. Well, he could have, if she hadn't died in 1999.
As the English wife of a French soldier she spent the early part of
the war in Vichy as to stay at home in Lille would have invited
internment, or worse. After the occupation of Vichy she might as well
have been in Lille as Aix-en-Provence and so went back home where she
lived under false papers provided by a friend who worked at the local
town hall.

Heh. Though it must be said that being better informed than the i-
kike is about as difficult as putting on a hat.

 

The fundamental difference is that whereas in most European nations
there was a degree of co-operation, collaboration, call it what you
will, with the obvious and honourable exception of Denmark, in no
other state, occupied wholly in part or whatever was there any
official, state-sanctioned cooperation with the mechanics of
genocide. As has been well documented not only was it official, but
the Vichy regime was more proscriptive in its treatment of its own
people than even the Nazis were at that stage of the genocide.

 

In communiqué
<1i5bujh.1jtx9no1xvxkmN%>, The

Well yes, but you and Des are ascribing different meanings to the words
"occupied" and "unoccupied". A bit like poker being gambling but only
*legally*?

I favour you interpretation in this context. Des seems to be saying that
though being legally "unoccupied", Vichy France was entirely under
German control, so that explains (but doesn't excuse) everything. He
argues that the whole of France was de-facto "occupied".


The BBC piece uses the word autonomy. I am also persuaded that Vichy
France was, as you put it "unique".

I am no longer sure, not for the first time, what point Des is trying to
make.

It's late. John Cleese, David Frost or Ned Sherrin I ain't.

--

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

 

Well, it was the official French line until 1995.

 

See my reply to TOG.

--

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

 

Could you two sort of, get a room?

D.

 

Heh. No, there is a fundamental difference between being under military
occupation, and not being so.

I would not argue with the statement that when the Germans said: "Jump!"
the government in unoccupied France asked: "How high?"

Which is, of course, a very silly thing to do, especially in this
context. Consider: almost everywhere else, Jewish doors were being
banged on by German soldiers. German soldiers (and others) led them
away, put them into trucks, guarded them with guns.

In unoccupied France, this was done by the French themselves. This is
the crucial difference.

Thank you.

Well, now, he is trying to obfuscate the issue, move the goalposts, and
blather on about other things, which is his usual response to having
been made to look an uninformed ass.

 

Certainly Vichy operated under a degree of duress. However, and
again, this is crucial, this was not a situation that was set in stone
from day 1. The Germans did not expect to have conquered France quite
so easily and so fast, and did not have the resources to immediately
put France under blanket military rule. Thus the Armistice and
division of the country into the occupied and free zones (from
December the latter being called officially the non-occupied zone by
order of the Germans themselves) allowed the Germans to set up their
administration. However the Vichy government immediately set about
Jewish persecution. Ian Ousby in his book "Occupation" notes "Vichy
was not run by Nazi ideologues eager to do the Reich's bidding, nor
was it run by scared men forced against their patriotic inclinations
to obey the Reich's commmandes. Its National Revolution was home
grown, rooted in French soil and carried out by people who beleived or
could easily persuade themselves that they served the best interests
of France".

Vichy's suppression of the Jews was so vicious that Jews who had fled
to the south to avoid the Germans sought to return to the North of
France.

As ever. And having established that the i-kike as usual has got it
wrong and will then twist and turn, make self serving I've kicked your
arse again statements and all the usual drivel, may I suggest we all
return him to his isolation tank.

 

Wossat then? Not seen owt about it.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10
`\\ | //'
`\|/`
`

 

If you were god, you'd be omnipotent and therefore wouldn't have
allowed such shit to happen. Either that, or you just wouldn't give a
****, as you'd be off shagging whatever took your fancy and having a
blast of a time.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10
`\\ | //'
`\|/`
`

 

Ta, looks good.

<Checks episodes>

Damn, I missed the one about Croatia (and the next two) cos I was in,
errr, Croatia at the time.

Still, I guess it'll be repeated in a few weeks time, as seems to be
the trend these days.
--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10
`\\ | //'
`\|/`
`

 

Each episode's repeated on BBC4 or summmit about a week later, followed
by an advanced showing of the next episode. At least I think that's how
it works.

--
Krusty
www.MuddyStuff.co.uk
Off-Road Classifieds

'02 MV Senna '03 Tiger 955i '96 Tiger '79 Fantic Hiro 250

 

So not much good for me then. I was more thinking about the unseemly
haste with which most programs are shipped out to UKTV these days. In
this case, of course, I would consider it a good thing.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ DS#8 BOTAFOT#3 SbS#2 UKRMMA#13 DFV#8 SKA#2 IBB#10
`\\ | //'
`\|/`
`

 

ROFL!! Such arrogance would be amusing, if it weren't so tragic.

Off to work with me, which gives you some time to recover from the drubbing
of last night. I'll post again later on.

D.

 

Yes - I missed the "unoccupied" bit..

Cheers,
Phil.