Jerez - Mamola's view

Again - no one is disputing the influence that legandary US riders have had
in GP. No one. But you're mixing 2 utterly unrelated issues in your message,
and trying to extrapolate something that's simply not valid. History also
has disruptive points, at which point it's clear you can not extrapolate a
trend into the future. I am merely speculating MotoGP *may* be entering such
a phase.

Again, history aside, let us consider the facts:

Sport A has an enormous fan base in country X, and pays the to athletes
engaged in that sport millions. There is a natural pull of the local talent
base into the sport, very aggressively, from very early on. Over time, that
country will establish a certain natural supremacy in that sport, and it has
little to do with genetics. It's just the fact the local structures in
country A have the potential talent for sport X recruited very early on and
bring it up in an extremely competitive environment. It is natural.

GP has just recently reached the levels of hyper-money-making super-star
popularity it has now. Sure there's always beena big fan base, but the Angel
Nieto's or Ricardo Tormo's always had a blue-collar quality to them, they
came across as always greasy fingered mechanics with great riding talent.
Popular, but not of the supermodel dating, jetsetting quality. Kids didn't
want to be them. They wanted to be soccer players. It's entirely different
now, and the change has happened in the last 5 years or so. My point is that
going *forward* there is a certain danger that Spain and Italy may
monopolize the sport. We'll have to see.

Nothing to do with history, because the world of GP has changed disruptively
from what it was 15 years ago. To extrapolate history is a purely emotional
argument. Based on extrapolation of trends, every empire throughout history
has assumed it would defeat the odds and rule the world forever. Doesn't
happen. Sure my argument is pure speculation, but based on the developments
in other sports it is somethat that *could* happen in the *future*. It's
clear the present is nothing like that, nor has the past been. But the
immense popularity the sport is gathering in just a few countries does pose
that risk, namely that those countries "hijack" it with huge sponsorships
and superior *development* local talent . Not superior talent - just the
infrastructure to develop it is better, and that makes a huge difference, we
all know that. That is all I am saying, and I think it is a valid logical
premise.

It's nothing to do with country-vs-country competition, since in many years
of watching motorcycle racing nationality has never been something that's
influenced my opinion of riders. You and Mark just seem to have a knee-jerk
reaction and wave the stars-and-stripes every time your even remotely
presume something is turning this into a battle of the nations. And I am not
saying anything about lack of natural talent in the USA - I am sure the
talent base exists.

I have not lived long enough in the USA to know whether something has
changed in the popularity of motorcycle racing in the last 30 years. When I
read with which enthusiasm people talk about some of the old champs -Aldana,
Romero and many others- get the impression the psort may have been bigger
back then, more in the public consciousness, but I've no way to truly know.
What I know is that motorcycle racing is utterly obscure in the USA right
now. Mladin is so far from being a celeberity it's not even funny
considering his record. So perhaps, just perhaps, that may become a problem,
because someone who could be the next Spencer is more likely to go race
NASCAR as soon as he can. Other popular motorsports recruit the talent away
from motorcycling given the latter's lack of superstar appeal. Superficial
as it sounds, that has a huge effect. But, again, only those who have lived
here much longer can attest whether that is a true development. I speculate
it may be on of the reasons why the USA hasn't kept cranking out the
dominant champions.

At the end of the day, all we have to do is look back in 5 or 10 years and
see what's happened, and hopefully we'll all see som ver competitive
championships until then...

....pablo

 

I'm bored. And Haydon has resigned gracefully giving Lavilla the GSE
slot for the rest of the season. And tomorrow we have another Mickey
Mouse, 50 second lap circuit in Mallory Park. Remember Spencer in the
Transatlantic races? And that Canadian chappy who's name I forget.

;-)

 

Excellent message. We'll just have to wait see how it'll all pan out.

....pablo

 

If you read back, you'll see this topic had been about possible future
trends in MotoGP given the direction some stuff has taken. And yes, "trends"
and "future" amounts to speculation. Ultimately a pointless exercise, this
speculation thing, but nevertheless something we all see to enjoy doing
before a season or race.

....pablo

 

Oh good grief. That is the biggest load of old shite I've smelt in
years. Mark, you need to get out more and see a bit of the rest of the
world.

 

In all fairness, and being one that has fired strong broadsides when it came
to generic claims in the past, the discussion had drifted into a direction
that considered the development of motorcycling in different countries. The
whole thing was under the premise of theorizing and stretching it some.

Plus I found it promising because for once we were able to discuss this
without starting to toss around stuff about the Spanish and Italian being
Machiavellian nationalist pricks that will conspire to bury the careers of
riders who aren't born under their flag, or about the USA rider pool having
receded to the point where they're barely fit to ride without training
wheels attached to their bikes. Luckily, we still find consensus on topics
such as riders from the British Islands only being motivated to give their
best when they're riding inches off curbs and lamp-posts...

....pablo

 

I am not sure I agree with that. I think it depends on the chemistry between
teammates, and unless they're desperately competitive (which typically is
the case when they're candidates to get to the top, which neither Kato nor
Gibernau seemed yet able to do) there can be a camaraderie that develops.
It's happened before. After all, you see that guy more often than others at
several team events, promos etc etc. In any case, this is psychology, and
who knows what ticks in the labyrinths of the human mind, it's forever a
mystery...

I think if the National Baseball League vanished tomorrow, the stardom and
the legends gone, the "Love of the Game" would vanish quickly, and something
else would fill the void. After all, didn't baseball take over from boxing
in the roaring 20s or so, only after Dempsey retired, and broke into the
huge time with Babe Ruth and such. Then again, I am no baseball historian at
all (I haven't ever watched a game), but I think it has a lot to do with
hero worship and such with kids. No superstars and heros, no irrational love
for a game.

Dominance in sports has an interesting tendency to flow with social
opportunity. Again - whether or not this is going to become a factor in
MotoGP I am in no way to truly foresee.

Yeah, we've been here before. No one doubts there's a number of factors in
effect there. You tend to never ever admit to the fact that Checa may know
how to ride a little, too, and that perhaps he's not as many light-years
behind in talent from some of the guys making an impression elsewhere. Has
Checa enjoyed loyal sponsor support? Sure. But has he ever truly disgraced
his team, has he truly performed utterly underwhelming performances? No. He
performs at a "GP craftsman" level - he basically guarantees a top 10
placement in the championship. There are not dozens of riders worldwide that
seem able to do that, even on Checa's rides.

Is that what Fortuna Yamaha is now, a top tier team with top tier machinery?
They have last year's Yamahas, I think I heard.

That is a point I have been making all along.

True about the smal class dominance, but you do forget some names there.
Tormo, first and foremost. Also, out of the nostalgia archives, a huge
legend in Spanish motorcyling was Santiago "Santi" Herrero (who you
mention), who's wins on a 250cc Ossa were the stuff of legends. But he went
as quickly as he came, died in the Isle of Man TT while in the lead,
providing everlasting folklore.
http://www.madriders.com/MAN/SANTIAGO.htm

True enough. But given the $ involved at this time, it would not happen
quickly. I think there's investment into furthering it, even.

Yes, but now it truly seems to have become engrained in national culture.
Latently it was always there. Nieto was huge, *everybody* knew him. But he
was a total anti-hero personality, and the whole image building thing that
sponsors go for these days was not en vogue then. It's just gone from there.
You *really* need to try to go on a vacation in Spain and go to a GP there.
It is quite unbelievable. You need to be there to feel it.

....pablo

 

Is that the best you could come up with?
Danish the Dutch was actually the best. Almost neighbors but with far less
ties than Norwegians and Dutch have, that was a real killer. But then again
what can you expect from that side. Living on that little island of yours.

/MBE

 

Well the team's press release had him resigning gracefully ("for the
good of the team"). I can't believe he's that happy about it in
reality. I'm assuming he got a good pay-off that might compensate
to a certain extent.

Cheers,