Just failed the CA DMV motorcycle popsicle test (and I thought Ihad passed)

Discussion in 'Bay Area Bikers' started by Joe Mastroianni, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Joe Mastroianni

    Twibil Guest

    This comes as a surprise to you?
    No, I did it on a Honda VFR800FI: a relatively chunky and
    top-heavy sportbike designed for optimal speeds of around
    100 MPH rather than 5. It also featured Honda's then new
    fuel-injection system that made the throttle response more
    of an on-off switch than anything else: yet I passed on my
    very first try.

    Q: Do you suppose that could be because I knew more or
    less what I was doing *before* I took the test?

    Sigh. Did you really imagine that Reeky hasn't seen
    previous iterations of the "You're lying because you say
    you did something that I couldn't." cliche'?

    Fact is, I'm not all that skilled a rider; and I know that
    because I've ridden with and known a number of riders
    who I have no problems admitting are far better than I
    ever was. So if *I* could pass the silly popsicle test on
    the first try what does that say about the guys who

    The other fact is that plenty of riders -including a fair
    sprinkling of beginners (which I wasn't)- pass the popsicle
    test with no problems, and it's only the ones who *don't*
    who come here to piss and moan about the unfairness
    of life in general and motorcycle lisencing tests in
    Twibil, Mar 4, 2013
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  2. Joe Mastroianni

    tomorrow Guest

    What you'll also want to know (if you actually really want to know
    what it going on; and there is no indication so far that that is the
    case, at all):

    1. How many of the ADULT students (21 or older) who took the CMSP BRC
    class had any knowledge that it is possible to take the written and
    riding test at the California DMV and get a license without taking a

    2. (a) Of those, how many thought it was BETTER to get some training
    before they got a motorcycle endorsement on their license.

    2. (b.) Of those, how many actually owned their own motorcycle at the
    time of taking the CMSP BRC class, or had access to a motorcycle to
    learn on and practice on and to take the California DMV riding test

    3. Of those, how many TOOK the California DMV written and riding test
    and FAILED prior to enrolling in the CMSP BRC class?

    4. How much better were the novice riders who took the CMSP BRC class
    when compared to novice riders who took and failed the California DMV
    written and riding test?

    5. How much money does it take to set up and operate a CMSP BRC class?
    tomorrow, Mar 4, 2013
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  3. Joe Mastroianni

    Al Schmidt Guest

    tomorrow wrote on Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:00:04 -0800:
    I will answer you in detail because out of the dozen or so posters
    to this thread, you're 1 of about 3 who actually think & speak
    with reason.
    I disagree - but you'll see that I'll be sticking only to bare facts
    so that we 'can' come to some understanding as to what is happening.

    We know way more than 90% of California bikers are NOT taking
    the DMV test- that is sure. It's likely around 95% (but we don't
    know the exact figures until we get pass/fail stats from the DMV).
    Nice to know. But I really think that will be impossible because
    the CMSP hasn't even called me back yet in my quest to find a simple
    number of how many riders passed and failed in 2012.

    I'm going to try to get bone-dry bare facts from them first.
    Al Schmidt, Mar 4, 2013
  4. Joe Mastroianni

    Al Schmidt Guest

    tomorrow wrote on Mon, 04 Mar 2013 09:34:40 -0800:
    Hi tomorrow,
    You're the rare voice of reason on this forum, so, I will respond
    in detail.

    You are correct in that I initially confused the two (MSF & CMSP).

    Everything I had said about the MSF I 'meant' to say about the CMSP,
    so, take only my statements moving FORWARD to be correctly focused.

    I think we've already established that the MSF has very little
    (almost nothing it appears) to do with the CMSP program, which is
    CHP "administered" by law.

    We've also determined together that the actual "profit" status of
    the CMSP class is nearly meaningless from the perspective of the
    student taking the class. It only has meaning later, when we have
    the bare-bone facts, and can begin to calculate the costs (since
    "non-profit" organizations have markedly lower costs than for-profit

    But, I'm staying totally away from money right now because we
    don't even have the bare bones facts yet.

    All we know, at this time, is that something like 95% of the
    209,297 M1 licenses issued in 2012 were NOT from the DMV
    riding test.

    That means that only about 1 out of 20 riders who got their
    license did so by the free CA DMV keyhole test. The other 19
    took the CMSP class.

    Those numbers are the first real datapoints that this newsgroup
    has ever had, to my knowledge, as a window into what is really
    going on.

    Note: I still need to hone those numbers though because we
    don't know the pass/fail statistics of the DMV, nor the bike
    sizes used.
    Al Schmidt, Mar 4, 2013
  5. Joe Mastroianni

    Al Schmidt Guest

    tomorrow wrote on Mon, 04 Mar 2013 09:37:11 -0800:
    I apologize. I had confused the MSF with the CMSP. I was wrong.
    Al Schmidt, Mar 4, 2013
  6. Joe Mastroianni

    Al Schmidt Guest

    Twibil wrote on Mon, 04 Mar 2013 01:04:02 -0800:
    As soon as I figure out killfiles, I won't have to
    see what you write anymore because it adds no value.
    Al Schmidt, Mar 4, 2013
  7. Joe Mastroianni

    gpsman Guest

    So... you couldn't pass with the same bike today...?
    I would've taken it as "CHP officers have no problem on Harleys. If
    you want to believe it's your bike that's the problem, go get one more
    appropriate to your skill level".
    Yeah, well, riding without the benefit of gyroscopic effect of rapidly
    spinning wheels is different, and more clearly reveals skill beyond
    those of a 6 year old on their bike.
    A "beginning rider" is by definition not ready to test. The class may
    not include the test simply because the instructors can't demonstrate
    it, assuming the same standard of truck driver training, or any other
    discipline of teaching. You don't ask the student to do what you
    can't, and can't do well, every fucking time. You'd have no
    Actually, it needs less. The conclusion is assumed in the premise.

    A reasonable theory would begin with a reasonable assumption: "Some
    riders pass and some fail. Why?" and proceed from there.

    It would not take off on a hypothetical tangent when the data showed
    more riders on larger bikes failed, on the reasonable assumption that
    it's harder to control larger bikes.
    gpsman, Mar 4, 2013
  8. Joe Mastroianni

    tomorrow Guest

    You have not established that the CMSP is non-profit, Al.
    tomorrow, Mar 4, 2013
  9. Joe Mastroianni

    Twibil Guest

    1.) You don't have to see it anyway unless you're telling us
    that you have no control over your own actions. All you
    have to do is skip the posts you don't like. Have you no
    will of your own?

    2.) The fact that you don't like something doesn't mean "it
    adds no value". It only means you don't like it.
    Twibil, Mar 4, 2013
  10. No. I think I posted earlier in the thread that there was a known
    problem that was fixed afterwards, but still, those big carbs had no
    setting for a rational speed around the circle. I sold the bike a few
    years ago, I was certainly a better rider 30 years ago.
    Well, my point was it wasn't my skill level. I was perfectly able to
    do it on a bike that had a throttle setting appropriate for doing
    that. I was by no means a novice, having by then had a number of
    bikes from mo-ped to Cushman to various dirt bikes to Honda 350 to
    Honda CB750 to the then-new Vision.
    What? I had a Raleigh Competition I used to ride from Santa Barbara
    to LA and back. If you've never done that, know that you have to ride
    on the freeway.
    I wasn't a beginning rider. I had somehow managed not to renew my M1
    and didn't notice it until I bought the new bike. Never was quite
    sure how that happened, whether I didn't check some box on a form or
    the DMV fucked up. I still have CM1, so assume the DMV fucked up in
    the '70s. It happens.
    Depends how scientific you want to be about it. Full on statistical
    analysis is math. Barbie tells me that's hard. You have to control
    variables and stuff.

    jgar the jorrible, Mar 4, 2013
  11. Joe Mastroianni

    gpsman Guest

    So, you would argue literally no one passed the test on the same year,
    make and model bike?
    Uh, didn't you just purport "I could do plenty of show-off riding
    maneuvers I wouldn't even attempt on a road bike, including a lot more
    circles than the test required"...?
    Seems vague, but reasonable.
    Yeah, I got that.
    And that was a larger bike?
    Experience doesn't mean dick.
    Apparently that was easier than the keyhole test, so I fail to see the
    No math is required to deduce the obvious. Few things are more
    obvious than the vast majority of motorists grossly overestimate their
    motoring skills, and will make leaps and bounds of logic and
    rationalize to maintain the illusion. All you're doing is punctuating
    that which is already known.

    If you drive like the vast majority, you're doing it wrong.
    gpsman, Mar 5, 2013
  12. Heh. Or "Because I cannot confirm it myself". Seen that a few times.
    The Older Gentleman, Mar 5, 2013
  13. Joe Mastroianni

    Al Schmidt Guest

    tomorrow wrote on Mon, 04 Mar 2013 21:38:10 +0000:
    Auuurgh. It doesn't matter. Why do you constantly bring this up?

    We can't accurately deal with the money until/unless we have
    the numbers first, specifically the pass/fail statistics
    at the DMV and at the CMSP BRC.

    Besides, from the standpoint of the user, it makes absolutely
    no practical difference if the business they are paying for a
    service is for profit or not.

    The only effect it has is on costs incurred by the "business".

    Anyway, here's what we know about the CMSP (in 2009):

    Relevant quotes from that article follow below:
    The CMSP is a motorcyclist-funded, state-operated program
    administered by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF) under
    contract with the California Highway Patrol (CHP).

    The California Motorcyclist Safety Program trained 70,469
    students in 2008, an 11 percent increase over 2007, setting
    what is believed to be the record for most students trained
    in a year by any state program.

    Under contract with the California Highway Patrol, the MSF
    initially assumed the administration of the CMSP on January
    1, 2004. In September 2007 MSF was again selected by CHP to
    administer the CMSP for 2008 and 2009.
    Al Schmidt, Mar 5, 2013
  14. Plenty? I'd say 5% is not plenty. It's a very select few.
    Charlie Albertelli, Mar 5, 2013
  15. Joe Mastroianni

    Hank J. Guest

    What actually comes as a shock to me is that you write
    like an adolescent, but in that picture, you actually
    look like a real adult.
    Hank J., Mar 5, 2013
  16. Joe Mastroianni

    tomorrow Guest

    Please provide the source for your claim that 95% of riders who take the CA
    DMV motorcycle riding test fail it?
    tomorrow, Mar 5, 2013
  17. Joe Mastroianni

    tomorrow Guest

    I brought it up in specific response to YOUR assertion (which you
    snipped in your quote of my response) that:
    If you don't want to talk about the profit status of the entity that
    is providing the training, then please stop bringing it up yourself.
    I didn't bring it up. I'm simply responding to your assertions.

    Also, please don't say "we've also determined together," as that is
    not the case.

    In Virginia, there is a HUGE difference between the cost to the
    student for the non-profit Virginia Rider Training Program classes
    (which are subsidized by state rider training funding from a surcharge
    on motorcycle registration fees) and the cost to the student from a
    FOR PROFIT class such as Harley-Davidson's state-approved "Rider's
    Edge" class.

    So I have never determined - with you or anyone else - that the "for
    profit" or "not for profit" status of the CMSP is not germane to the
    Why is that?
    Sure it does. It costs a student $150 to take the VRTP BRC through my
    local community college in a class that is administered by the state-
    run (hint: not for profit) VRTP. The same class, with the exact same
    MSF (and Virginia DMV) approved curriculum costs $429 at my local
    harley-Davidson dealer through their for-profit "Rider's Edge"
    class. The exact SAME class, using the exact same MSF (and Virginia
    DMV) approved curriculum costs $349 through Apex Cycle Education, a
    for-profit motorcycle training company that conducts classes locally.
    Demonstrably untrue. If the for-profit entity has to PAY for a large
    paved parking lot and a classroom facility and motorcycles that a not-
    for-profit entity has DONATED to it by a local non-for-profit
    educational facility, then the savings for the not-for-profit entity
    can be passed on to the student, and the costs incurred by the for-
    profit entity will most assuredly be passed on to the students.
    tomorrow, Mar 5, 2013
  18. Joe Mastroianni

    Al Schmidt Guest

    tomorrow wrote on Tue, 05 Mar 2013 05:09:58 -0800:
    And I'm simply responding to yours! :)
    It seems we're in a circuitous loop neither of us wants to be in.
    I'll try to break it by NOT mentioning that status in this post!

    On a different note, that PDF you supplied was fantastic!
    It was a wealth of good information!

    I wish we had MORE of that type of statistical information so
    that we could better UNDERSTAND what is going on.
    Al Schmidt, Mar 5, 2013
  19. No, I have no clue whether anyone else did that. I do know that when
    I bought it, there had been a sudden recession that particularly
    affected new motorcycles, so there were warehouses full of these
    specific bikes in crates. So I got a great deal - actually, I was
    happy to trade an unsaleable VW van in on it (the dealer donated it to
    a charity or something, I assume for a profitable writeoff). Now
    these bikes are considered a cult bike, the fellow I sold it to had
    several, including one he bought new. He slapped some carbs on that
    he had laying around and is happy too. When I asked him about the
    carb issue from when they were new, he didn't remember any such
    thing. So maybe not every one had the issue, or maybe it was a dealer
    prep problem, I have no idea. I do distinctly recall I wasn't the
    only one with the problem - the dealer had a warranty fix - but hey,
    it was 30 years ago. I do find it easier to remember problems than
    lack of problems.
    OK, now you're being a dumb-ass. The bike I had issues with was a new
    road bike. The bike I could show off on was a DP bike I had been
    riding for 10 years. Capiche? And I've posted elsewhere about how
    dirt riding experience saved my ass on the road bike, such as hitting
    gravel mid-turn. I was certainly not the worlds best rider (my motoX
    friends would dust me on dirt), but far from novice or otherwise
    No, a smaller bike.
    How can you even say that? Fine and coarse muscle control, balance,
    coordination and visual perception all are affected by experience, and
    they all affect whether you can keep a wheel between two lines in a
    dynamic situation.

    Minor correction: I had a Kawasaki 350.
    Get sucked into the draft of an 18 wheeler on the freeway and you
    might see some gyroscopic effects of rapidly spinning wheels. A
    little hard to tell, but I think this is the spot: http://goo.gl/maps/cir9A
    Well, in spite of any self-evaluation error effects, I do have a big
    honkin' autocross trophy. And before people start blabbing on about
    racing experience means you are doing it wrong on the street, I must
    point out the purpose of autocrossing is to demonstrate exceptional
    accuracy and control of a vehicle. So no, I don't drive like the vast

    Though every day, I sure see plenty of well below average driving.
    Pickup trucks towing trailers running stop signs this morning. Note
    the plural.

    jgar the jorrible, Mar 5, 2013
  20. Joe Mastroianni

    Twibil Guest

    Says the guy in his adolescent post.
    Twibil, Mar 5, 2013
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