Learning languages

Don't care, I like compliments like that.

 

I hated it and was rubbish at it and glad I didn't have to do it past 13
(in 1981).

 

That's because you're taught with a specific goal in mind. If you simply
learn stuff then you remember, with very little effort, a rather large
amount in information.

For example, just how many bike make and model numbers do you know?

--
Veggie Dave
http://www.iq18films.co.uk

"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim
that Jesus was not born of a virgin." Cardinal Bellarmine

 

If I learn something by working it out or researching it, then yeah, I
tend to remember it. But I don't remember things people tell me or even
things I've done (usually work related[1]) unless it's information I
need to use regularly.

So with something like languages where learning them relies almost
entirely on just pure memory, I'm utterly hopeless. I have to 'learn' a
few words then keep using them for days before they stick in my medium
term memory, then I might remember them for a few weeks, but that's it
- they're gone again. They only stick permanently if I keep using them
for months.

It may be related to having my head fairly well smashed up when I was
5. That wiped out pretty much everything & left me starting from
scratch, which made the first couple of years of school a bit of a
challenge.

A tiny percentage of the number I've heard/read about over the years,
or which come up regularly. E.g. I've no idea what the Kawasaki H1/2
etc are, & whether they're KHs or not, because it's not something that
crops up regularly & I've never owned one. But I do know they're
Kawasakis because 'Kawasaki KH...' & 'Kawasaki H1' are terms that do
crop up regularly.

[1] Hence I use MSN Messenger with chat logging when talking to
colleagues rather than the phone so I can refer back to the
conversation when I've forgotten all about it the following day.

 

There are two main problems with language in this country.

1. The way languages are taught in schools.
2. The "I speak English, why should I learn another language?" mentality.

Later in life, we get two new excuses:

1. "Only children can learn a language. I'm an adult therefore I can't
learn one to any degree of competence."
2. "English native speakers are bad at other languages".

Of the excuses, neither is true. Of the two main problems, the second
is very short sighted, and the first needs to be fixed. Until the first
is fixed, then there really isn't much point making languages compulsory,
all it does is waste time as students learn nothing worthwhile. A case
in point, a couple of years ago, I heard an article on PM on Radio 4
about language learning in Britain. One thing that particularly sticks
to mind is the 16 year old girl who had just got an A* at GCSE for French.
The interviewer asked her to describe her morning in French, and all
she managed were a few broken words, not really even a coherent sentence.

To amplify a bit on the "excuses", my own experience is this. I had
compulsory French from (IIRC) age 8 to 16, and at 16 having taken my
GCSEs (with the result of an E in French) I coudln't string a coherent
sentence together in French. I will be the first to admit I wasn't exactly
the best student but that notwithstanding, "children are supposed to
soak up languages like a sponge".

So why, then, was it when I decided to learn Spanish in May 2008 as
an adult, that within 6 months I had learned more Spanish than I ever
did of French (after so many years of French!), and today just over two
years on - while I wouldn't claim to be fluent - I can hold meaningful
conversations with Spanish people on most subjects, listen to and understand
RNE 5, watch and understand Spanish television (including dramas, not
just formal speech in news channel), and I recently gave a presentation
in Spain, in Spanish. Without ever once having seen a teacher!

The difference is the school method of teaching French was overly
technical (not about communicating, but about rote memorisation)
and about as much fun as watching paint dry. Learning Spanish however
was fun from the start. Of course, the internet helped by making
it easier to get into contact with native speakers. (Someone else
did comment that the comparison with learning French was hardly fair
since this was the second Romance language I had started to learn, but
I don't think this is valid since I didn't really learn French in
the first place, and - ironically - about half of the French words
that I do remember are false friends with Spanish words and served
to confuse, not to help).

So, to summarize, until schools make language learning *fun*, then
language learning will always be a dismal failure, and making it
compusory won't help. We need to fix that fundamental problem first.
Of course if language learning is made *fun* then compusion may
not be necessary at all.

 

Sounds like you must be a bit thick then, either that or you had a
succession of crap teachers, which is possible, and which you fail to
mention in your 'problems' list.

When I left school with a 'B' pass at O level, I could quite easily
have managed a sentence or three on spec like that, and when I next
had occasion to try and use it, when I went to work in Brussels about
ten years later, much of what I had learnt was still there and very
useful indeed.

What works for some does not work for all. I learn languages best by
understanding the rules, working out the "why" of the odd spellings,
grammar, prounciation etc. Only once I feel I've got that can I
attempt to move on in any meaningful way.

And as for memorisation, I've found that this is much more needed with
many modern approaches to language teaching, as the cunts _will_not_
explain why such-and-such needs to be said like that, or spelled like
the other, or adds an 'en' onto some words but not others. The
attitude of "just get on with it and don't try too hard to understand
why" really annoys me, and to me is much more about memorising things
than the way I was taught French in Grammar school all those years
ago.

Uuuurgh. It's attitudes like this that make British education these
days so crap. It's not supposed to be fun.

 

Oops. You have mail.

 

Dylan Smith escribió:

They do if they are immersed. I know quite a few billingual kids and if you
go to places like Catalonia or the Basque Country or even Galicia etc.,
you'll find genuinely billingual people that learned both languages *at the
same time* from birth.

 

Ace escribió:

With you there. I can't learn anything parrot-fashion. I have to understand
why I'm doing stuff before I'll be any good at it. I know some English and
Ukrainian people here that get by fine in Spanish, but it's horrible. They
know nothing of proper conjugation, nor gender etc. But what can I say? It's
all about communication and they communicate. Not for me though, that route.

 

I just _can't_. If I'm unsure of how to say something I'll sometimes
go to extraordinary lengths to avoid trying. Swiss German's not too
bad, as they're quite arbitrary about whether, and where, they apply
High German rules, but even so it took me a while before I'd have the
confidence to say things, knowing that there'd be about a 60% chance
of getting the gender endings wrong, rising to probably 80% if it's
noy a simple object in a sentence.

The worst thing is that even if you know what case it should be and
what gender it is, you still have to go through a 4*4 matrix to know
which ending is correct, and I failed at memorising that when first
presented with it in the third year of grammar school and have still
never got it.

As I say though, the Swiss don't seem to care, so I've at least
partially overcome my reticence. Maybe one of these days I should get
off my backside and learn it properly.

 

At school I just couldn't see any reason to learn another language.
Perhaps it was the teacher's fault for not being able to explain the
benefits or transfer any passion for either French or Latin.

--
Veggie Dave
http://www.iq18films.co.uk

"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim
that Jesus was not born of a virgin." Cardinal Bellarmine

 

I looked at Rosetta Stone. It seemed a bit like the Michel Thomas
method but with pictures and quizzes. I tried Michel Thomas French
about 5 or 6 years ago - it seemed to work, but it was extremely
boring and intensely irritating. I lent the CDs to somebody a few
years ago, but I've forgotten who.

 

In my first O-level year, we were taught French. I got the highest
marks in the class. Come the second O-level year, the school had
mislaid the French teacher, and gave us a year of geography instead.

 

platypus escribió:

I started my Spanish with Michel Thomas. It's a good introduction, but he
doesn't even tell you how to say hello. Or to ask for a beer.

 

I had a look at Rossetta Stone Turkish briefly. Then got over it fairly
quickly as it seem to be very "run spot run. See spot run." And it
required poaching a windows box off the Mrs. It was kind of like watching
paint dry but less fun and no hope of intoxication from the fumes.

 

Champ escribió:

Mixing yer singulars, plurals and other stuff.

Anyway, here it'd be "doh serrvesa e invita éste". And hello would be "¿qué
aseh, tío?"

 

My version would have been very similar to the one Champ came out with
and I've always managed to get beers in Spain.

The first thing I learn in any language is how to order a beer,
closely followed by "good morning " and once they've been mastered I
usually go for learning how to insult the locals.

I've been having a riot recently because the granddaughter is
currently being looked after by a South African child minder and comes
home using Afrikaans words. I've taken it upon myself to teach her a
bit more Afrikaans and her mother is going ballistic because she
thinks I'm teaching her to swear and the reality is I'm teaching her
to say "good morning " and "how's it going?".

It's not what you do, it's what they think you'll do that makes the
difference.

 

82 to 89. Wasn't such a bad school (well, I did alright anyway).
Seemed to have a shit reputation in the area though - probably just by
being compared with the 2 grammar schools in the city.

Pretty much every lesson with him from 2nd year onwards was a
borderline riot.

There was more than one occasion where, after a lesson, the classroom
was left looking like it had been boarded by pirates.

Nope. Me neither.

Miss Knight.

 

For you maybe. Where I go, it's una cana (Can't do the "n" on this keyboard)

 

Around here, hello is, "Que onda, ese?"