Leave helmet on or off?

"Ace" said to Ballistic" >>

Piece of piss, put the visor down, if it goes foggy the fuckers breathing

--
Donegal Paul
Eibar Li186 Series II
www.thepilgrimssc.co.uk
www.glitterbydesign.co.uk
Getting into racing for 2007!!

 

Shut the visor and see if it fogs up, of course.

If you can clearly see that the casualty is breathing it's not a
problem. If you're having that much trouble working out if they're
breathing or not then it's time to make a decision.

 

There's not much point in leaving a lid on, if the rider isn't
breathing and you can't give mouth to mouth.

Mind you, if it's a flip top lid or open face and you can give mouth to
mouth, should one leave the lid on or not? I suppose it depends upon
whether the lid causes an obstruction whilst performing first aid.

Also, if the patient is unconscious, but breathing, you can (and
should) leave the lid on, no?

 

Absolutely. Wouldn't argue that.

--
Nursey RN
ALS & APLS Provider
MIRTTH#6 IbW#09 4#COFF EFFA MOP#1
Honda CBF600 ABS
(nursey at ukrm dot net)
UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/

 

The changes for Basic Life Support aren't that much different. Advanced
is a different kettle of fish

--
Nursey RN
ALS & APLS Provider
MIRTTH#6 IbW#09 4#COFF EFFA MOP#1
Honda CBF600 ABS
(nursey at ukrm dot net)
UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/

 

ABC's are a valid point, but if you are in this type of situation you
need at least 3 people to assist properly. 1 wouldn't be able to do it,
hence the reference to compression only resuscitation, plus I am not
trained in Advance Trauma Life Support, so my level of training is
significantly lower.

I always carry a face mask to be able to do this as well, but it would
depend on the circumstances.

No, BLS is usually done for in hospital training, but you always get
someone asking about it.

Different airway adjuncts (which I don't carry).

Gold standard for keeping an airway open and protected is intubation
(for which I am trained and regularly undertake at cardiac arrests).
You definately can't do that on a full face helmet (or an open face for
that matter).

Others include guedel airways and nasopharyngeal airways (which I don't
carry). Both have their own problems, but don't protect the airway from
soiling. The guedel can induce vomiting if the person is semi concious.
Nasopharyngeal airways can go north in a base of skull fracture which
isn't a good thing at all.

The main point that I was trying to get across is that if the person is
not breathing I would not perform airway techniques, but get on with
compression only CPR. The Japan Study showed that it increase survival
of out of hospital cardiac arrests by about 2% to 8%. No compressions
at all have a survival of about 2.2%

Hope this makes some more sense and you can see where I'm coming from.

What training are you going to next year?

--
Nursey RN
ALS & APLS Provider
MIRTTH#6 IbW#09 4#COFF EFFA MOP#1
Honda CBF600 ABS
(nursey at ukrm dot net)
UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/

 

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Cab

According to the TT Marshalling course we did a few weeks back, no.

If they're unconscious then the lid comes off so that (as Ace points
out), you can check they're really breathing, and because they may stop
breathing.

--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - Podium Placed Ducati Race Engineer as featured in
Performance Bikes and Fast Bikes

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner",
Honda GL1000K2 (Falling apart) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big"
Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha Vmax Honda ST1100 wiv trailer

 

Well ideally, yes. But if I was alone and someone was wearing a
full-face lid, I'd still be able, by removing the helmet, to perform
some level of CPR on my own. Leaving the lid on would make it
impossible, or at best much more difficult, to monitor for breathing.

Furry muff.

Ahh. So if you're not carrying anything you'd just let them choke? No,
I don't think you would, IRL.

Indeed, which is fair enough, given your understanding of airway
techniques. But my first-response training (to a much lower level than
yours) is only talking about checking the mouth and throat are clear
of vomit, foreign objects or the victim's tongue. It's still not clear
to me if you're suggesting that compression-only CPR removes the
necessity for this.

Sure, but I'd appreciate further elucidation.

Mountain-rescue first aid, given by www.basp.org.uk They're usually
pretty sharp and up-to-date, given that it's their daily job to deal
with trauma victims where hospitalisation may be some distance and
time away.

They also very much deal with solo situations, like asking us the
question: what do you do if you and a buddy are skiing out in the
backcountry, no phone contact, no ski patrols, no passers-by, and he
collapses - no breathing, no pulse?

a) Perform CPR until you revive him
b) Perform CPR for ten minutes then go for help
c) Perform CPR for 30 minutes then go for help
d) go for help straight away.

The answer was, initially at least, quite surprising.
--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

I think most of those changes were already taught when I last did it
towards the end of 2005. But as pointed out elsewhere, it's more
important to have confidence to actually do something than worry about
breaths/compression ratios.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

this is what the latest guidelines say for finding a casualty who has
had heart attack. just perform chest compressions, ratio 30-2 breaths.
--
Adie
(replace spam with nickname to reply)

UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/
keeper of the ukrm faq for my sins

YZF-R1: ZX9R E1

MRO#11 BOTAFOF#7 BOTAFOT#130 DIAABTCOD#17 MIB#24 YTC#16 BOB#15 ex-UKRMMA#22 BOMB#11

 

Depends on whether you are enjoying the skiing or not.

 

Err, how can something with a ration of compressions to breaths be
'just chest compression'?

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

Actually when I said unconscious what I _should_ have said was 'not
breathing', which just goes to show how good my grasp of the subject
is. I think Ace's point about the difficulty in being able to
determine whether the subject is breathing or not if they are
unconscious is a valid one, but it wasn't addressed on the course I
attended. So, errr... dunno.

 

i meant go straight in with chest compressions.

--
Adie
(replace spam with nickname to reply)

UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/
keeper of the ukrm faq for my sins

YZF-R1: ZX9R E1

MRO#11 BOTAFOF#7 BOTAFOT#130 DIAABTCOD#17 MIB#24 YTC#16 BOB#15 ex-UKRMMA#22 BOMB#11

 

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Adie

I must admit, I found that doctor's comment amusing, when we were
discussing the possibility of breaking ribs:

"If someone's brought into hospital alive after CPR, and they haven't
got broken ribs, they didn't need CPR".

--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - Podium Placed Ducati Race Engineer as featured in
Performance Bikes and Fast Bikes

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner",
Honda GL1000K2 (Falling apart) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big"
Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha Vmax Honda ST1100 wiv trailer

 

Heh.

But was that some time ago? I always thought that most broken ribs
were a result of an over-enthusiastic thump to the sternum, which is
now not recommended at all.
--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

three weeks ago.
--
Adie
(replace spam with nickname to reply)

UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/
keeper of the ukrm faq for my sins

YZF-R1: ZX9R E1

MRO#11 BOTAFOF#7 BOTAFOT#130 DIAABTCOD#17 MIB#24 YTC#16 BOB#15 ex-UKRMMA#22 BOMB#11

 

If the answer was surprising, I'd assume that d) was it. I take it the
figures back up my assumption that;

1. Amateur attempts at resus have a very limited success rate and it's
better to trudge off for help than to have two bodies in the snow.

2. The corpse might magically revive (indeed, he might not be dead at
all, just a bit slow).

 

Close the visor and hope it's not got a Fog City insert in, of course.

Looking for chest movement is not reliable, either as a

Strangely, I've seen a LOT of people breathe and I can spot the signs.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

Not so much because it's 'amateur', but without specialist care as
provided by an ACLS[1] team the chances of CPR alone restarting
someone's heart are virtually zero. By starting CPR you're simply
wasting time - your buddy _will_ die if you don't get help, so go get
it ASAP.

It seems that there are also some negative effects of giving CPR for a
short time then stopping, such that it's much worse than just not
starting. Not sure about the details, but it's something to do with
the blood's chemical balance or summat.

"I'm getting better!"

[1] Advanced Cardiology Life Support. Think 'Crash Cart'. They have
all the special drugs, defib machines, etc.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`