Lids and HDs

Discussion in 'Australian Motorcycles' started by F Murtz, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. And taking nothing else into consideration, that's about it.


    When the first Bell jet helmet came out, around 1960, they said that because
    the helmet was lower down the back of the neck, it would break necks if you
    were in an accident,
    this was way before full faced helmets came into being.
    George W Frost, Jul 13, 2011
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  2. Boom Boom !!
    George W Frost, Jul 13, 2011
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  3. In on Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:11:45 +1000
    There was a study done in Melbourne a few years ago.

    They looked at crash injuries bad enough for people to be in hospital
    and compared them with counts of protective gear seen on riders. Plus
    they talked to a lot of people and asked about crashes, injuries, and
    protective gear.

    There were so few crashes involving lading on your chin that they
    couldn't get enough info on open vs full face to be useful.

    I note that the injuries I sustained were some broken teeth and a cut
    from my safety glasses being pushed into my forehead.

    Given the tooth damage, the other lack of facial damage, and the marks
    on my glove... it appears that I managed to knock my own teeth out.

    If so, then the force required to remove healthy teeth might have been
    pushed back into the hand if the hand contacted the chinbar. Meaning
    quite possibly a broken hand. Teeth vs hand damage, tough call.

    (And never mind what rotational torsion might have been transmitted to
    my neck)

    As I refuse to have that crash again it is all just speculation. Maybe
    I'd have had no damage in a fullface, maybe I'd have broken my neck,
    maybe if I landed slightly differently there'd have been no damage or
    heaps more.


    But I still wear an openface helmet 15 years later, and the flipface
    I bought as a compromise hasn't been worn in about that time.

    I might be a special case in that because I have a size XS head and
    most helmet shells are size M or larger, I find my eyes are well back
    in a helmet and the shape of a fullface around the chinbar cuts my
    vision back noticeably.

    No fullface I've tried gives me the vision an openface does. (And
    they make turning my head difficult as I have a relatively short neck
    compared to the average man.) As I think vision is important in
    preventing crashes I will take better vision over unlikely facial
    damage every time.

    Zebee Johnstone, Jul 13, 2011
  4. In on Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:11:45 +1000
    A thought.

    These seem like riders who are not expecting crashes. In other words,
    are not into "sporting" riding.

    Is spending heaps on a fullface and leathers all about risk
    compensation? Doing riskier things because you feel the risk is now

    Zebee Johnstone, Jul 13, 2011
  5. F Murtz

    Nev.. Guest

    I had a rather spectacular accident at high speed on Melbourne road well
    known for motorcyclists trying too hard. I hit a bump got a tankslapper
    which transferred to the rear end which threw me over the bars and I
    slid a fair way up the centre of the road. I was able to ascertain the
    distance i travelled because there was a road sign adjacent the spot
    where I ended up and I walked off the road and sat down next to that
    sign. Aside from a cut on my leg requiring 15 stitches I was mostly

    About 10 years later, another motorcyclist had a simlar accident at
    similar speed, (wearing a full face helmet), hit the same bump had the
    same tankslapper, over the bars, hit the kerb so hard with the chinpiece
    of his helmet that the helmet came off his head and he hit the the same
    sign that I had stopped adjacent. He was probably going faster than me
    and I'm unsure whether his injuries were caused by his head hitting the
    kerb/road or his contact with the sign, however while our accidents were
    almost identical, i walked away and that was the last thing he saw.

    Anyhow, getting back to open face helmets, I believe that the damage
    inflicted on a full face helmet is not indicative of the damage expected
    on the chin of the wearer of an open faced helmet, because if you're
    sliding down the road scraping the front off your helmet you've got no
    reason to lift it off however if you're sliding down the road scraping
    your face off, your reflexes will almost certainly instinctively lift
    your face off the road before you even realise what's going on.

    Nev.., Jul 13, 2011
  6. F Murtz

    Jeff R. Guest

    My sister lost her two front teeth when learning to ride (and drop) her
    Honda 90 step-through.

    Not a "chin" injury as noted, but pretty traumatic and painful nonetheless.
    Enough to change her mind about riding.

    A fullface would've probably prevented the injury (I imagine).
    Jeff R., Jul 13, 2011
  7. F Murtz

    Buzz^| Guest

    Have a good look at the guys that plan to crash often.

    On almost every ride I do someone goes down in the group, and on some
    days every single one has an off. Climbing slippery rocks or riding
    quick in rutted muddy mountain tracks takes it's toll. Sure we're not
    the average sports rider but we do push the limits.

    Helmet laws are there so you wear something, they don't stipulate a full
    face with neck brace and full leathers, chest protectors etc... I'm not
    sure the laws say you NEED footwear or not.

    Nobody wears a lid in our group. Might mean something.

    Brad Leyden
    6° 43.5816' S 146° 59.3097' E WGS84
    To mail spam is really hot but please
    reply to thread so all may benefit
    (or laugh at my mistakes)
    Buzz^|, Jul 13, 2011
  8. F Murtz

    atec77 Guest

    In 40 odd years of riding I remeber only one broken neck from a helmeted
    rider accident , and a decapitation however a number of riders had
    limbs missing one bloke I new back around 1969 or 70 took a spill on
    his 500 through a car door flung open , lost the days old clip front off
    this open face and got a scare and a sore cheek .
    atec77, Jul 13, 2011
  9. F Murtz

    Nev.. Guest

    I'd be willing to bet the proportion of loss-of-front-tooth injuries
    would be much higher among the pedal bicycle riders than open faced
    motorcycle riders, however aside from a few riders doing hard core
    mountainbike, BMX and half pipe any sort of tooth protection is
    virtually non-existant among bicycle riders.

    I wonder if bicycle forums have full face vs open face discussions and
    why the vast majority of bicycle riders don't consider the risk of
    injury they might sustain would be worth exceeding the minimum legal
    requirements to satisfy the helmet laws.

    Nev.., Jul 13, 2011
  10. F Murtz

    Diogenes Guest

    Anger management issues, Cam? :)


    Onya bike

    Diogenes, Jul 13, 2011
  11. F Murtz

    Diogenes Guest

    I not only do not expect crashing, I take great care to ride
    defensively and safley. That includes making allowances for my own
    skills deficiencies, my bike's handing limitations, and all external
    conditions. I have nothing to prove and I don't suffer from "the need
    for speed".
    I'm not sure many would admit such to themsleves or others. Nor am I
    sure they would even be aware of such. You appear to attribute very
    high levels of self-awareness to bike riders. I am way more cynical
    about same.


    Onya bike

    Diogenes, Jul 13, 2011
  12. F Murtz

    CrazyCam Guest

    Not really, Gerry.

    My comment was based on the experience of riding down P'matta road, not
    the most pleasant of motorcycle trips normally, but, on this occasion, I
    was following in the wake of a classic seven foot tall hard core bikie,
    complete with all the stuff, patches, tatts, and a leather scabbard
    along the side of his H-D, with the butt end of a rifle or shot gun
    poking out.

    Nobody, but nobody, didn't see this bloke, and gave him a sufficiently
    clear and open run, that there was enough room for me, following at a
    respectable distance, to also get a clear run down the road.

    CrazyCam, Jul 13, 2011
  13. F Murtz

    Diogenes Guest

    The conclusions you reach in your anecdote are so logically flawed
    that it's pointless to reply in any way other than "Ha ha ha, great
    joke, Cam." Except, even as a joke it is disturbing.


    Onya bike

    Diogenes, Jul 14, 2011
  14. While on the topic of anecdotal stories and full face helmets I heard
    that one of Perths premier facial reconstruction surgeons was now flat
    out busy because of the new trend in scooters and open face helmets.

    Fraser Johnston, Jul 14, 2011
  15. In on Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:30:34 +0800

    Urban legend.

    Why do I think that? Because it's *news* that's why.

    IT's big enough news that the trauma surgeons all over Oz would know
    about it.

    It's big enough news to have made it to the bike mags. Or even the
    mainstream papers because it's a great bad news story with good
    potential for heartstring tugging.

    My guess is someone said "I bet there's a lot of facial
    reconstructions" and the story went from there.

    DOn't get too scared about chins. All you silly buggers who are
    wearing Draggins thinking you will be wonderfully protected should
    piss 'em off and use motorcross strap on knee and shin armour. Armoured gear
    is the big take away from the MCC study on protective gear, especially
    leg armour.

    What, looks dorky? Too much like work? Awww.... You'd never
    compromise your safety for looks or convenience or comfort would you?

    - who thinks this argument is like speeding: people who wear less kit
    than you do are careless idiots, people who wear more than you do
    are paranoid nancies.
    Zebee Johnstone, Jul 14, 2011
  16. for anyone who cares:

    is a Cochrane review of the literature about lids.

    "Both Cannell 1982 and Vaughan 1977 found full-face helmets compared
    with open- faced helmets (or 'jet helmet') provided no significant
    advantage in relation to head injury (OR 1.13, 95% CI 0.34 to 3.76
    and OR 0.88, 95% CI 0.58 to 1.32, respectively). Vaughan 1977,
    Krantz 1985, O'Connor 2002 and O'Connor 2005 found that full-face
    helmets compared with open-faced hel- mets (or 'jet helmet') had
    no significant effect on neck injuries (OR 0.85, 95% CI 0.26 to
    2.80, OR 0.84, 95% CI 0.07 to 9.56, OR 0.76, 95% CI 0.15 to 3.81
    and OR 1.08, 95% CI 0.27 to 3.12, respectively). Similarly Cannell
    1982 found that full-face helmets compared with open-face helmets
    did not have a significant effect on facial injury"

    Wear what you find comfortable and sensible. Do not expect your gear
    to protect you in all circumstances. Avoiding crashes is much better
    than having them so buy your gear to be comfortable and make sure it
    doesn't interfere with riding at all - vision, heat/cold, movement.

    But if you do have a crash your gear has to stay in place, so it has to
    fit well. Which, alas, is easier with helmets than armoured clothing.

    Zebee Johnstone, Jul 14, 2011
  17. F Murtz

    Theo Bekkers Guest

    "Fraser Johnston" wrote
    Google search appears to have missed those many accidents.

    Theo Bekkers, Jul 14, 2011
  18. F Murtz

    Theo Bekkers Guest

    "Nev.." wrote
    In WA, Third party compulsory insurance is as follows
    Cars $245
    Bikes $139
    Bikes under 75cc, includes scooters $22.

    Factor in that in WA you can get a >50cc scooter licence when you turn
    16. I don't think that covers very many facial reconstructions.

    While I was looking that up I found this surprising statement

    Safe driver reward - free licence renewal
    Provisional drivers (P platers) who do not commit a traffic offence
    during their two-year provisional period will receive a one-year free
    licence when they renew their licence for the first time after
    completing the provisional period. This applies to all eligible
    drivers licences expiring on 31 December 2005 or later.

    How about that?

    Theo Bekkers, Jul 14, 2011
  19. F Murtz

    Theo Bekkers Guest

    "Zebee Johnstone" wrote
    Yup, looks like it.
    You don't really think people are going to hand back their hard-won
    Poser Permits do you?

    You still got yours?

    PP # 43
    Theo Bekkers, Jul 14, 2011
  20. In on Thu, 14 Jul 2011 15:37:02 +0800
    Of course I have!

    I don't have the original shorty black illegal lid anymore, but I do
    have a pudding basin in case I get another vintage bike.

    Zebee Johnstone, Jul 14, 2011
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