Man jailed over fatal road smash

<applause>

Biggus you have the non sequitur down to an art form.

JL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)

 

Well actually, no, there's two debates in this thread, one about the
death penalty and usefulness/ viability thereof, and another about
legalising heroin.

JL
(I'm anti, fwiw)

 

You've never been in a meeting with a bunch of pharmaceutical company
marketing people, have you?

:-/

big

 

If the majority of a society think that it's appropriate, that society
gets to implement it, and anybody travelling through it is subject to
the same rules. You're wasting your breath bleating about it here; if
you want to save the lives of convicted drug smugglers, go and work in
countries that have capital punishment.

 

It it is supplied under presecription, and not over the counter then
that ceases to be an issue.

Why would a legal heroin supplier be exempt from liability for damages?

 

True, I was really only talking about the two boys found guilty of
operating the drug lift and getting the death penalty. The various
kids involved; yes it's sad for them. I wonder how gullible they
really were though;

*approached by a drug operator*: hey kid, want a free trip to Bali?
kid: okay, but what is it going to cost me, really?
drug operator: nothing, we just want you to have some fun! What are
your parent's addresses by the way?

 

The bit that concerns me is that the Federal Police showed no concern
that the people would face the death penalty as a direct result of thier
actions.

That is little better than pulling the trigger themselves.


G-S

 

The A.B.S data shows aggreate rates, not rate per head of population
though and the percentage trend is roughly stable (yes with a slight
initial trend upwards, and then a lowering).

G-S

 

I doubt anybody is 'in favour of the death penalty': that would be like
being 'in favour of abortion'. I believe in it's effectiveness as
punishment, more than as a deterrent - it's the ultimate justice. On
the other hand I hope it never comes back in here, only because of the
possibility of executing an innocent person. Still, a country applies
whatever punishment it wants and if somebody who doesn't like it can
talk them out of it well that's nice, but it's still a society's
choice. As I can't vote against the death penalty being applied in
Indonesia, and as I never intend to travel there much less carry drugs
through, it's not my problem. I prefer to spend time on stuff that I
can fix.

And since you're dying to know; I'm pro-choice; wouldn't have an
abortion myself (not that that's ever going to be an issue...) but
don't think it's any of my business if somebody else chooses to. I'd
fight for the right of the unborn children if I was willing to also
raise them all. The parents conceived it; it's their responsibility to
choose what to do with it.

 

Physically speaking, minimal. Unlike alcohol (which will **** up the
baby permanently, as in Fetal Alcohol Syndrome), heroin use during
pregnancy has very little effect. Most of the birth problems
associated with heroin addicted mothers are due to malnutrition and
general poor health (which are consequences of prohibition rather than
heroin itself).

Yes, the babies are born heroin-dependent, but that's fairly easy to
fix; just wait until the baby's health is stabilised, then put it
through withdrawal before it's old enough to realise what's going on.
AFAIK, current medical practice for heroin-addicted mothers is to put
them on methadone and advise them not to try and quit until after the
birth; the shock of withdrawal would harm the baby (probably causing a
miscarriage) much more than a methadone affected pregnancy does.

Mind you, this doesn't mean that having a heroin-addicted mother is
something you'd choose [1]. Heroin addicts tend to be messed up for
other reasons; their heroin use is generally a response to that. Most
of the smackies I've known were abuse survivors [2], with a wide range
of psych problems. Serious drug problems are nearly always a symptom
rather than a cause.

--
Craig Motbey
1985 BMW R65LS

[1] But sometimes you might. A good friend of mine is an ex-smackie
(clean for about a decade) who had a kid about five years ago. She's a
bloody good mum.

[2] Note the "most". Some people are just thick.

 

The death penalty is the main reason I joined Amnesty International.
And Amnesty have (as a recommendation on thier web site), that lobbying
in those countries that don't have the death penalty is an effective
stratagy.

It seems that Amnesty disagree with your 'work in those countries'
(implied exclusivly) comment Minx


G-S

 

They would be expempt from damages to the extent that they had taken
reasonable care, as would any provider of services or goods.

It is (despite what some lawyers may attempt), not viable to sue for a
bad outcome where that bad outcome was clearly explained and listed as a
possiblity.

Similar situation occur when operations (which have a certain % of bad
outcomes) happen.

And no I'm not saying that some ambulance chasers won't 'try it on', but
they haven't been very successful where negligence doesn't exist.


G-S

 

Because it is a moral stance.

I'm not that easily made to feel silly.

Can I identify? Yes mostly, but not always.

If people wish to take an immoral pro-death penalty stance then they
should be 'outed'.

If they are only saying 'well it's thier country' then that is a
different stance, and doesn't deserve condemnation (at least not to the
same extent).


G-S

Sometimes

 

True, there are 2 debates... I was only addressing one


G-S

 

Okay, I read on:

serious health problems and deaths that arise from the use of heroin
arise from the persecution of addicts under the law, and the resultant
illegal trading. It's really quite a benign drug, if the quality and
dosage can be controlled. The idea that heroin is inherently evil is
another of those big lies like "Speed Kills" and "Wipe Off Five".

Yes, I suppose I just dislike any kind of addiction, and can't see the
country doing better out of making another substance acceptable.
Serious health problems and deaths also occur because it's legal to
drink and smoke. Does pure heroin actually do less damage than pure
alcohol or tobacco?

society that says it's bad, places no effective restriction on their
use
and then sits back and collects copious amounts of tax.

I don't think kids think about it that hard.

suggested a scheme that would make the same mistakes with heroin. A
scheme that supplied reliable substances to registered addicts under
controlled conditions would be likely to at least significantly reduce
the criminal involvement in the problem, and so reduce the
opportunities
for recruiting new users.

I do like that idea, but just dislike the idea of supporting anybody's
addiction. At some point they made a choice to take this substance;
why protect them from the consequences?

a death penalty by our own police force, when arresting them in
Australia would provides a better chance of picking up the big players
who are the real ones behind the trade without imposing a death
penalty.

The police didn't strap heroin to their bodies.

I'm not going to grieve the rights of people who have set their
own course.

Sure if you want, but if you want to do something about it, you'll need
to be having this conversation with a lot of Indonesians.

... it's okay to the Indonesians, and they knew that. Their choice.

rehabilitation?
I believe that the laws of a country are that country's interpretation
of justice. If that country chooses to apply no mercy, it's the
responsibility of anybody dealing with it to accept the consequences.

 

Yes it would certainly be cheaper. I just don't like the idea of
state-sponsored addiction.

Kid with not much idea re what to do with life, open to influence:
"Hello drug dealer"
Drug dealer: "Hi. I've got this pure heroin courtesy of the other kids
I've hooked taking their PBS card to the pharmacy and giving half their
supply to me in exchange for not being kneecapped. It's the safest
drug on the market and once you dig it, you'll be supported by the
government all through your life of starlight and rainbows. All I want
is half your supply and for you to do the occasional kneecapping. When
what you're getting from the pharmacy isn't enough I'll sell you
more...."
Kid: "Well gosh, I was going to do that McDonalds manager training, but
you make it all sound so glamorous. I thought heroin was for chumps.
Sign me up, sign me up twice!"

 

So tell me about heroin, why do they like it? Does it cause brain
damage? Any other organs?

 

Bloody Wikipedia! There goes my high horse...

 

Well that's great; really - good on you for being somebody who puts
their money where their mouth is. Still I think you'll have far more
success lobbying Indomoto.com!

*sigh* Okay I'll put it on my list of things to care about, but it has
to compete with genocide, war, honour killings, domestic violence,
Kyoto, immigration, sustainable development, slave trading, child
exploitation, FGM, free trade, land mines, terrorism and cult
movements, the rights of asbestos
victims/disabled/homeless/aged/post-natal/depressed/history of
abuse/separated fathers, preservation of indigenous cultures, bay
dredging, controlled burning techniques, deep sea overfishing, dugongs,
desertification, salinity, remnant vegetation patches, waterway
quality, and the newest addition courtesy of a very passionate
lecturer: human genetic engineering.

There are things I can change and things I can't, and the law in
Indonesia I possibly can but it's not at the top of the list.