I used the word 'people' as I was referring to a time when no one had yet been convicted. It's a simple general word that implies neither sex, race or age. However, what those two boys were convicted of doing was definitely not a childish crime. I believe the idea is that children, being basically innocent due to a lack of experience and understanding of consequences, must be treated and judged with that premise firmly in place. Unfortunately, what those two boys did to Bulger, and the time and effort that it took to kill him, makes the premise of them not understanding the true consequences of their actions nigh on unbelievable. And it was this that I think the 'mob' were feeding off. Sadly, they didn't actually know (at the time) if they were venting their hate on the right people - but then humans rarely need the real villain if there's someone right there to take the blame. Both? -- Veggie Dave UKRMHRC#2 BOTAFOF#08 IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com IQ 18 RADIO http://www.iq18films.co.uk Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me
Glad to see you don't subscribe to the 'original sin' view at least. I would think it very difficult to quote anything approaching an exact age at which a child truly understands the consequences of their actions. Once you factor in any developmental problems relating to the particular 10 year olds in question it becomes even more difficult. My 9 year old lad can be as callous as the rest of them when it comes to 'creep crawlies' sometimes, although interestingly he rates spiders as SWMBO, who has nothing for contempt for females who shriek at the sight of them, has got him interested in them (knowing that we live in a country with funnel webs or the like). I am pretty certain, however, that he would never do anything like Venables and Thompson or be a party to it. I think this was touched on in a thread some time ago, but the 'damage' (either by commission or omission) was probably done by the time they were seven. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Pete Fisher at Home: | | Voxan Roadster Moto Guzzi Mille GT/Squire RS3 Gilera Nordwest | | Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
The pecking finger pecks, and having made a complete balls of it pecks on: (knowing that we *DON'T* live in a country with funnel webs or the like).
I think when you (or attempt to) cut someone's penis off, and when you completely crush someone's skull with a slab of concrete (IIRC), you'll have a reasonable idea - even at that age - that what you're doing is just a little more than just naughty. However, when the mobs were baying for the public hanging of two little boys, they had no idea if they were guilty or not. I always find it amazing that they can never see that they're no better than the people they want to 'punish' - in both cases, they want to kill someone to make themselves feel better... -- Veggie Dave UKRMHRC#2 BOTAFOF#08 IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com IQ 18 RADIO http://www.iq18films.co.uk Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me
And when they attempt to disguise the crime by placing the body on railway tracks. Even if they can see the ridiculousness of the position, letting go of the urge for vengeance takes strength. I wouldn't be baying in a crowd, then or now, but I remember long discussions at the time. My son was 2 when Jamie Bulger was murdered. I and many other mothers held our toddler's hands tighter after that day.
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Champ Per Mrs WUN's observations, the same as everyone else in the shopping centre where she worked: kept the kids really, really close. For nearly two whole days. -- Wicked Uncle Nigel - Podium Placed Ducati Race Engineer WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41 SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner", Honda GL1000K2 (On its hols) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big" Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha GTS1000 Honda ST1100 wiv trailer
Had a hell of a time explaining that the world wasn't as shit as it looked I would imagine. It reads in a trite fashion but it had a lot of resonance at the time. Joe was the same age, coming up to three, I was just pregnant again. I remember the absolute horror and the debates around vengance and justice. I've always been anti death penalty, probably always will be, but back then, pregnant and a young mum I had a major challenge to my views. Maybe every decade gets a high profile case where 'evil' seems to be a factor. Much like the moors murders, I think this was another murder where the psyche of the nation got scarred.
I'm sure he doesn't. And neither do I. Kids don't come born with morals (or very few) - it's a process of education. And if they don't get that education then they grow up thinking that it's perfectly OK to pull the (metaphorical) wings off human spiders. Indeed it is. Which is why the law sets the age at 18 - because if a person hasn't gained that understanding by then then they are probably never going to. "Give us a child to the age of five and he will be ours for life" (TM - The Jesuits). Phil
Phil Launchbury said... That would explain why my grandfather ran away from a Jesuit boarding school in Liverpool and joined the army aged 13. When he was found out and returned he escaped to join the army again, and never went back to Liverpool for as long as he lived. All he'd ever tell me about his schooldays was that the Jesuits were evil sadistic bastards and he'd have quite happily have shot every last one of them.
I suppose Jim was out of the question then. <shrugs> I don't do much media these days, so I rarely give a toss other than the front page of the BBC website. Which I just check to see current state of any wars we've joined in.
Phil Launchbury scribbled: Why do you think human beings, if they grew old without any influences at all, wouldn't have any form of affinity to their same species? Do you think compassion is *not* part of human nature, its 100% taught to us?
Aha, the good old nature v. nurture debate. Continuum innit ? On the one hand, given any amount of teaching some individuals will still turn out twisted. On the other, though "disadvantage starts in the womb", a decent upbringing can make a hell of a difference. Prolly 50/50 is my guess. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Pete Fisher at Home: | | Voxan Roadster Moto Guzzi Mille GT/Squire RS3 Gilera Nordwest | | Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Simon Gates? He'z just ziz guy, you know? As you say, all these things are part of the environment the people are in (whether long term (caste/class) or short term upheaval (concentration camps). Certianly not "without any influences at all". Peer/public pressure is a formidable thing, especially if you get shot/locked up if you don't "toe the line". What people were forced, or brainwashed, into doing is not necessarily the same as their opinions on the same matters. Are you saying that all the soldiers in Germany who had anything to do with the camps and the ethnic cleansing morally agreed with it, or were they too scared to disobey orders?
Halla? He'z just ziz guy, you know? I was simply verifying Phils opinion, I could have asked "if kids are not taught morals they wouldn't have any affinity to their own species?" but decided to extend it to cover any sort of external influence that could be seen as education. Didn't quite mean no sensory input at all! <ponders following from compassion to love not being part of nature to the Bible therefore logically being wrong... nah> Say you came across a stranger in a bike crash obviously in pain and hurt, not on TV or reading about it in a paper, but in person, hearing them screaming in pain. Regardless of whether you actually helped or not, you believe that sick feeling in your gut, feeling helpless and unable to do something worthwhile, that that is taught to us 90%? I know some people won't give a damn, they don't place any value on human life, but I hope that that group is a very small minority.
Yup. They firmly believed in the 'we have to be cruel to save you' theory. Like the Inquisition (who were mostly recruited from the Jesuits anyway). Phil
Of course they would have affinity - by a process of punishment/reward as well as the genetic drive. If they discover that doing good things means that good things happen to them they would generally modify their behaviour so that more good things happen to them. No. But compassion is complex - it can be derived from an entirely altruistic standpoint (I have compassion even though there is nothing in it for me) all the way through to compassion derived entirely from a selfish standpoint (I have compassion because I get rewarded for it and am driven solely by that reward). It can also vary depending on who is the target of the compassion - there are good genetic reasons to be more compassionate to close kin for example. Phil
