Motogp Japan (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Motorcycle Racing' started by Lin, Oct 5, 2003.

  1. Lin

    Lin Guest

    Hi all

    Although I would prefer Edwards to be on that bike, it was good to see
    Hayden come of age (so to speak) at the Japanese GP. Hopefully he will do
    well in the last GP's. He has done well in the last few, I know, but just
    hasn't been up there with the leaders as he was today (IMO).

    I am not going to comment on the Tamada vs Gibernau <?sp> incident, as I
    don't know what happened.
     
    Lin, Oct 5, 2003
    #1
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  2. The result of which is that Nicky got the Podium. Tamada got
    disqualified.

    --Carlos V.
     
    Carlos Villalpando, Oct 5, 2003
    #2
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  3. Lin

    S Frank Guest

    I think Tamada did move over and hit him, but I don't think
    it was intentional and I have seen much worse over the years
    go unpunished (Capirossi winning the 250cc championship,
    Capirossi crashing the guy that was a test rider and a garbage
    man but would race the italian rounds just to name two). I didn't
    see the John Hopkins initiated crash at the beginning so I can't
    comment on that crash. However, John has no business trying
    to win the race in the first turn when anyone he gets in front
    of will just pass him later anyway. He is disqualified in the
    next GP round.
     
    S Frank, Oct 6, 2003
    #3
  4. Lin

    Julian Bond Guest

    I've just watched this again in slo-mo. Tamada *is* in front by maybe a
    wheel when he moves over. Sete still has plenty of room and never gets
    anywhere near the white line. After the touch, Sete pulls left but still
    doesn't touch the white line. It looks to me like Sete is defending his
    line by deliberately setting up for the corner further across the track
    than usual. This forces Tamada even further across. After Tamada is in
    front, Sete makes no attempt to concede the corner which frankly is
    hardly surprising with 3 corners left in the race. And when they've
    disputed corners (especially this one) half a dozen times already in the
    race. But that makes at least part of the responsibility, Sete's. Then
    you have Tamada with pretty clearly less power/torque than Sete so the
    only way he could race was to out-brake and then hope to block. He'd
    looked all race as if he could turn faster lap times but his machine
    wouldn't let him get far enough ahead to avoid just being swallowed up
    on the next short straight. And then both riders made it round the
    corner with out falling off. And the incident happened far enough back
    from the corner that you have to think that Sete could have made it
    without even running off the road. So all in all this was nothing like
    Capirossi-Harada. And was less dangerous and less an issue than some of
    the moves Bayliss, Edwards, Xaus and Hodgeson have pulled on each other
    in the last two years.

    So I think the incident is just racing and I think the penalty was
    unjust.
     
    Julian Bond, Oct 6, 2003
    #4
  5. Lin

    sro Guest

    So I think the incident is just racing and I think the penalty was
    Interesting point, however you can see why they did penalise him cant you ?
    Barging Gibernau while he is holding a bike right on the limit under braking
    is a pretty sure
    way of gaining advantage but possibly not what they want to encourage - look
    at the touring
    cars :)
     
    sro, Oct 6, 2003
    #5
  6. Lin

    Julian Bond Guest

    Yes, I take the point, I just didn't consider it barging. I don't want
    to see anyone hurt. I don't want to see people deliberately banging into
    each other. But this is 3 corners from home where the only way one of
    the guys can win is by out-braking the other and holding the line to
    stop the other pulling through under power. How many times have we seen
    some pretty radical moves in this situation in all the classes. And
    isn't that what makes M/C racing exciting? If Sete had conceded the
    braking and adjusted his line he might even have beaten Tamada. But at
    the least nobody would have complained and Tamada wouldn't have been
    excluded.

    The point is that Tamada had passed Sete. And Sete had loads of room to
    his left. What seems to be at issue here is how aggressively Tamada
    moved over. Would it have been ok if he'd eased over?

    Biaggi's old comment about Jacques comes to mind here. "This isn't
    ballet".
     
    Julian Bond, Oct 6, 2003
    #6
  7. Lin

    André Klomp Guest

    The speed in which Tamada pulled over to the left, made it impossible for
    Gibernau the react in time to avoid collision. Besides, i don't think
    Gibernau could have expected such a brusque manoeuvre by Tamada.
    Tamada crashed into Gibernau, nothing else.
    After the collision Gibernau was clearly not able to brake in time to get
    through the corner and still being on the tarmac. After the collision
    Gibernau wasn't "thinking" at all. He -and everybody else in this situation-
    reacted on impuls.
    I agree with you on that, but only because Capirossi did it on purpose and I
    Tamada's action was just badly executed.


    And was less dangerous and less an issue than some of
    I would prefer a 20 seconds time penalty.

    André Klomp
     
    André Klomp, Oct 6, 2003
    #7
  8. Fully agree, Sete cannot do anything to avoid the contact as he's already in
    the breaking zone and they all know that these zones are dangerous - just
    look at where are the walls; so the sanction is justified but too severe.
     
    pierre-bonneau, Oct 6, 2003
    #8
  9. Lin

    michael Guest

    I'm really suprised you haven't hit us with another one of those Spanish
    conspiracy theory.
    Anyway, I thought Tamada lacked aggression. He was giving Sete and Hayden
    way too much room and his passes were anything but conservative (typical
    japanese). The controversial move was aggressive, but I really believe the
    outcome was a racing incident. Sete either had to yield or risk being hit.
    He chose the later and that's just racing. Surely if they're going to
    disqualify people for maneuvours like that, then well, racing is going to be
    piss boring. Nobody will want to pass anyone anymore.
     
    michael, Oct 7, 2003
    #9
  10. Lin

    S Frank Guest

    Good points. I also think why Sete ran off of the track wasn't because
    the contact was so severe, but because his brake lever or handlebar
    was what got hit so it didn't take much contact.

    I don't remember the Biaggi comment. What was the situation surrounding
    that comment? Was Jacque being accused of riding too aggressively?

    Shane
     
    S Frank, Oct 7, 2003
    #10
  11. Lin

    S Frank Guest

    I thought that was Barros he forced off of the track.
     
    S Frank, Oct 7, 2003
    #11
  12. Lin

    Julian Bond Guest

    So, lesser riders shouldn't ride aggressively round championship
    contenders? But presumably it's OK for Rossi to pass lesser riders
    aggressively? Sete has to beat everyone, not just Rossi.

    Of course, I suspect what's really happening here is that everyone in
    race control is completely paranoid after Kato. People getting killed is
    bad for business. But then they still haven't apportioned any blame for
    that event.
     
    Julian Bond, Oct 7, 2003
    #12
  13. Lin

    Julian Bond Guest

    Yeah. You're right. I've just watched it frame by frame. When they
    touch, Sete is a good 3 feet from the white line. Then just after the
    touch he gets a big wobble on with the back swaying around. Having moved
    away from Tamada he ends up with the wheels almost crossing the line. I
    guess my point was that when Tamada moved over Sete had plenty of room.
    It was the loss of control afterwards that took Sete to the line. I've
    seen riders in 125 and club racing cut across so that the passing rider
    reaches the while line and the passed rider literally had no track left.
    It wasn't like that. During the entire incident there's always at least
    2 bike widths between Tamada and the edge of the track. But then that's
    arguably because Tamada touched Sete and so stopped moving across.

    It's all moot now, but I still see Sete refusing to be intimidated and
    holding the line well out from the curb and Tamada along side or in
    front and pushing outwards. So I end up having a hard time seeing
    anything but a last lap, last few corners, battle of cojones. Just like
    Edwards and Bayliss rubbing elbows at 190mph on the run into the last
    lap Parabolica at Monza.
     
    Julian Bond, Oct 7, 2003
    #13
  14. Lin

    Davide Tosi Guest

    The legendary Marcellino Lucchi, a great and I mean *GREAT* rider who could
    have won a lot more than he did if he just had a competitive bike before
    turning 40.
     
    Davide Tosi, Oct 7, 2003
    #14
  15. Lin

    S Frank Guest

    Thanks! I couldn't remember his name. I remember
    Capirossi just nailing Lucchi coming off of the line in
    one race and I thought Lucchi had gotten seriously
    injured.
     
    S Frank, Oct 8, 2003
    #15
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