Moving to Andalusia

No, it was me getting it wrong, for a change. I was referring to the
kings of Valencia, and later Aragon, who also ruled Occitan (hence the
french region of languedoc) and parts of Italy. For some reason I
thought they originated in Italy, but a quick google shows me wrong.


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Really? Not like any European city I've ever been to.

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Have they finished all the treatment on yours? I've still got metal
bits which will staya there until June.
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Aye, I found it so too.

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..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
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I'm self healed, no meccano. Tried physio but it was so crap I just do my
standing Chi Gung now. Seeing my specialist on 23rd for another checkup
but I think it's just down to me rebuilding strength now.

 

<Settles down>

Ah, here we go.

Tallbloke, tell me: are you intending to do Usenet in Spain???

 

A Boxhead arguing with a Jock on ukrm, about language.

Life just doesn't get any better )

 

I have. I'm clareted atm, so I dunno.

 

(The Older Gentleman) wrote in

Ooooooooooooh yes. Full broadband availability in my town )

 

The Swedes also invaded Hungary, will there be something of
that in Hungarian?

 

Prolly JB. Or Benny.

 

Bru?

 

Lots of nations have invaded hungary down the centuries, I guess they'll
all have left some linguistic legacy of some sort. I'm no expert on
language though.

 

Definitely just outside Irun, near Behobia

 

Timo Geusch says...

Fuggoff Cahn

 

Ace ha escrit:

Er, well, not exactly. A bit of linguistics and history a-la-Domenec:

The Franks stopped the moors in Poitiers and then stablished the Marca
Hispanica from the Pyrenees to Barcelona around 800. That territory was
ruled by several counts (Barcelona, Pallars, Empuries, Ausona...) In
988 there was a moor attack without the counts being helped by their
French king, so the counts more or less politely told the frog to f*ck
off. Technically they were still French dependant but politically they
were independant and the count of Barcelona managed to concentrate the
power with wedding alliances that included the south of France up to
Montpellier, but not the whole Aquitaine (ancient Occitania) Then at
sometime around 1150 a count of Barcelona married the princess of
Aragon (aged 15 months), which gave the Barcelona counts the title of
kings of Aragon. A difference between the kingdom of Aragon (modern
provinces of Aragon) and the crown of Aragon comprising the kingdoms of
Valencia, Mallorca, Aragon and Catalonia and whatever across the
mediterranean must be made.

During that time evidences of written Catalan appear (Homilies
d'Organya) but the language of cultuere was langue d'oc (in Castile the
language of culture was Galician, for instance) Then there was that
cathar thing and a croissade against the south of France was set up,
ruled by northern French. The Catalan/Aragonese count/king Peter helped
the Occitans, but was defeated in Muret battle (1212 or so) by Simon of
Monfort. Peter was killed in the battle which shows that spending the
night before the battle drinking should not be considered best
practices.

That marks the end of the relation of the Catalans with the Occitans,
except for a little valley, Aran, in the northern face of the Pyrenees
that for some reason joined the Catalan domain although keeping their
language (being isolated from the south by snow 6 months of the year
does help). Nowadays Aranese is the only Ocitan dialect with offical
status thanks to Catalan law.

Back to Peter-who-died-in-Muret, his son James passed into history for
several reasons. First is for being near two meter tall, blonde,
handsome and extremely successful with women. Second is for adding the
then moor Mallorca and Valencia to the domains of the crown. He is
known as James the Conqueror, but it is not clear which one of the two
reasons made him be called like that.

So, it is almost 1300, Castile has already conquered Seville and only
Granada is left in moor hands. How does it affect languages? Castile
was ruled by a rather monolithic saga of kings, the Trastamara. A
common political organization must have favored an homogeneous
development of Castilian (aka today's Spanish). In the crown of Aragon
several kingdoms existed, a king may divide their kingdom amongst his
sons... that helped keep the different flavours of the language in each
territory. It is cool to hear Majoricans speak their dialect, as it
ressembles a lot ancient Catalan (they are an island, a bit of
Galapagos thing in it)

Concerning dominion over the Mediterranean, I don't know how it
influenced. Family of mine has been to the south of Italy (Naples was
in the Crown of Aragon for a while) and the local dialect was closer to
Catalan than standard RAI Italian. What is more surprising to me is
that northern dialect Veneto sometimes has words that are quite close
too. Italian city of L'Alguer (Alghero) in Sardinia still keeps a
Catalan dialect with strong Italian influence but 100% understandable
for a continental speaker.

BTW, I started googling and found some figures I remember: "Catalan has
87% lexical similarity with Italian, 85% with Portuguese and Spanish"
http://es.geocities.com/linguasfera/Glossari/lingC.htm

 

Ob farting: anecdote in work today. A few of our team were out on the piss
last week, and were lined up at the bar in a fairly posh joint when one of
them unleashed a seriously loud, high-pitched fart.

"Oooooooh!" exclaims the camp barman, "A virgin!"

 

<SNIP>

Have you ever been to Llívia?
I have - by mistake. Easier to find your way in to then out of again.
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+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

 

<snip>

I'm much obliged to the Spanish gentleman for his elucidation.

So the Italian connection isn't completely a red herring then. Good,
I'm glad I wasn't just making it up.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

How far above sea level are you?