Mutant Nipponese Fasteners

Bike - '87 CBR600, 20k mi.
Item - Brace of 4 Keihin carbs

Please to reference pic on top/left:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3126/2515045092_754fd14937_m.jpg

Hopefully you can see the intake shroud and 2 mutant phillips screws
(connected by a strip of sheet metal) per each of 4 carbs.

Such phillips screws won't break. Even with Liquid Wrench and a
mechanical impact driver.

Such phillips screws are soft metal, and efforts to remove them tend
to strip the phillips slots.

Such phillips screws shouldn't exist in this application. Bolts might
have been appropriate.

What can one do with such garbage?

Thx,
Puddin'

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

 

Perhaps they were installed using Loctite at the factory. Have you
tried heating the screws with a torch?

Don't set your bike on fire doing that...

 

I just perused through your previous thread, not sure what you're
trying to access by removing the brass screw/bracket, but you probably
won't need to.
I'll post more in your other thread.

-88 CBR600 72k miles

 

Brass, huh? Sorry if I'm impeding this conversation, but I'd like to
know what's underneath that casting!

 

Just the the individual carburetors. The brass screws don't connect to
anything on the other side of the casting. They just hold down the brass
bracket.
If I remember correctly, at the top inside of the air box there are
similar brass brackets. So when the air box is put back on, those brass
brackets coincide with the the brass brackets on the carburetor housing.
They formed some sort of baffle, for either noise or for keeping
crankcase oil blow-by from entering the carb intake.
There is a crankcase vent hose that connects to the lower part of the
airbox. Every once in a while i'd find a tiny buildup of oil in that
lower left hand corner of the casting.

By the way Puddin Man, just curious how your regulator to stator
connector is looking. (The center white connector/3 yellow wired). Just
curious if it's showing any signs of overheating. When my R/R goes out,
that's the point that always melts.

 

I think the philips in Jap application use a different type screw driver
(JIS) or something like that.The USA type are slightly different and
cause the problem.I have greater success with them with the stock tool
kit screw driver.

 

The Honda tool kit that came with the bike has 1 plastic
handle, 2 interchangable drivers. The phillips is a
little flat on the tip like US phillips. J-u-n-k.

P

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

 

The Mutant Screws aren't brass, but they're plated with something
like brass in color.

I've been assuming that the MS's pass thru a hole in the casting
and thread into the carb bodies or somesuch. I can't see anything
else fastening the casting to the carb ass'y.

I just Liquid Wrenched one, shot it with liquid air (to freeze it,
get threads to contract), went after it with very substantial
phillips driver and a hammer. Nothing, Nada, and Zilch. Truly,
truly mutant.

Can't find such on this bike.

2 hoses, one on each side. Just inspected: trivial amount of oil slime.

Just inspected the 3 yellow connector in frame behind carbs. I didn't
remove the whacky connector, but I didn't see any signs of overheating
or other problem.

1987 was the 1st year for CBR600 US import if I recall. They were
"Alpha's" or "Beta's", not 100% production? There were little tiny
changes between the '87 and '88 models?

Your comments, etc are much appreciated.

Cheers,
Puddin'

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

 

Cadmium...

 

Memories... memories...

Years ago I used a vice grip, flattened the sides of the heads, and
then tried all pliers I own on them.
I remember that half moon strip, didn't think about what function it
was
supposed to have -- I probably mistook it for a lock strip, locking
those
phillips screws--
The screws were fixed with lock tite. I probably swore loud enough
to persuade them to finally give in.
That half moon strip gave me a next problem when I reassembled
the carbs. They warped when I tried to fasten the new screws.


Rob.

 

There's a reason people buy those kits to replace as many philips screws on
their Japanese bikes as possible with allen key (hex socket) bolts. When I
put stainless allen key bolts in place of my philips head bolts, I also
smeared a little anti-seize lube on them. Steel bolts in aluminum (and
exposed to road moisture) is just asking for something almost impossible to
remove gently...

 

I hadn't heard of such kits. Available at bike shops?

Damned if I'd want to replace garbage like that with the same (if I could ever
get 'em off in the first place).

P

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

 

So I'm not the only one to wrestle with such idiot garbage.

But they actually came off after you squashed 'em with vice
grips and worked 'em with pliers?

Do the half moon strips serve any real function?

Thx,
P

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

 

Sounds logical, but I find it hard to buy/locate fasteners that have the
same tensile rating, often the good looking ones aren't even labelled.

 

I too,have replaced my phillips with Allen SS bolts.Best place I've
found is www.boltdepot.com for any of my fasteners.Kits tend to cost
more

 

I started my previous posting with 'Memories... Memories'.
It has been so long ago that I even forgot what bike it was
and why I needed to separate the carbs.

Your picture triggered my memory, because I recognized
those half moon strips.
I remembered that I needed the vice grip to get the screws
out, there was greenish hardened plastic --I took that for
lock tite-- and that the half moons warped when I
fastened the new screws.

So all I really told you was:
"I used a vice grip to get them out"

No, I do not know what function those half moons have.
I did not think about it, because long time ago I was in
the aircraft business and strips like that were a normal
way to secure bolts. And 'naturally' I thought they were
there for that reason.
But real secure-strips had tang(s) you could fold up
on the side of a hex headed bolt. And those half moons
on the carbs had no tangs and the screw heads are
round.
So I should have given it a thought. But I didn't.

Unless you know the difference between a
Phillips and a Posidriv, read wikipedia for that.

Rob.

 

That's OK. It's helpful info.

I, MyOwnSelf, have tremendous difficulty recalling details of
outer-space BS. The more illogical the design, structure, etc
the faster I forget.

It just blows po' me away: why would they employ alleged super-
fasteners (or <whotever>), loc-tite, etc just to fasten a lower air
box to a brace of carbs? All manner of conventional fasteners
would've made perfectly good sense. And would've flogging come off
when necessary!

Damned if I can see any sensible function. But I still
can't get 'em off, so ...

Thanks, I didn't know about Pozidriv.

I just looked. They're not Pozi. Wish they were: I've
got 8 Pozi drivers in my "drivers-for-fasteners-from-
distant-galaxies" kit.

Cheers,
P

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson

 

Ahhh. New info.

I just saw a picture in a shop manual. The screws
have hex heads (with a phillips cross, just like the
screws in your PC) and the half moon strips have
a tang on both ends that is folded up to a side of
the hex., preventing the screws to turn loose.

So I was correct. The strips function is to secure
the screws.
But you and I both had round phillips heads,
thus something must be wrong.
Either:
We both worked on a bike that had been worked
on by somebody who broke off the tangs and
replaced the screws. Without tangs he did no
longer need hex heads, but needed loctite,
or:
keihin-san ran out of hex screws in 1987 and
just thought: okay, we'll use round heads and
loctite until we get a new batch of hex screws.
I know that things like that happen in a production
factory. I myself signed waivers for changes
in production like that.
Could well be that you and I worked on the
same batch of Keihins.

Rob.

Rob.

 

Stupid me. I focused on that 2-inch image and did not
RTFM words below it.

For you to see, I blew that image out of proportions to
http://www.peterbos.nl/pictures/carb.jpg

Just read what item #1 is named.

Nah, it is common practice. I worked for the Quality Dept
of a Dutch and later also of an American company.
The US cie had Jap customers among many others
from all over the world.
Japs were pretty tough and played everything strict
to rules. If I had to rank em quality wise; (meaningful rules
present, rules adhered to) the US-cie would come last.

Having said that: I own two bloody bikes (identical)
with rear suspensions that have no lube point and
a steel allen bolt (inside hexagonal, aka imbus)
screwed into aluminum that keeps it all together.
That bolt is impossible to loosen. I froze, blow torched,
hammered (hit my knuckles), molested hex keys (tools)
until they resembled a drill, and finally drilled the bolt out of
one bike's suspension.
And still can't get the suspension off of the bike.
Yes, they are Honda's.

Unfortunately, all this writing does not help you
to remove the screws.

Rob.

 

OK. "Lock Plate". No problem.

I haven't owned a Harley since '62. Wasn't much even then
(just "hummers").

Tells a tale, b'damn.

Yeah, but it helped me to sort out the insanity, figger out
where I stood. Much appreciated.

HowSumEver, your pic doesn't look like an '87 CBR600. You'd have
to look at both pics side-by-side: the dividers in the casting
between each intake are different. Not to say this questions
your conclusions. I don't see any other plausable explanation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do ya build a mot'sickle?

Ya gotta have engineering and manufacturing facilities, lots of suppliers,
etc. Blueprint a design, build a prototype, then troubleshoot. At some
point in the process, ya just start throwing stuff together and shipping
bikes.

How do ya build a 100% solid mot'sickle in terms of structural,
engineering, and manufacturing integrity?

You don't. It's never been done. Simply too complex and expensive. And
it's not what the buyers demand in practical terms.

And, of course, the same goes for automobiles and all manner of other
human contrivances.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prost,
Puddin'

" ... and the bees made honey in the lion's head."
- from "If I Had My Way", Blind Willie Johnson