Nice bike roads?

The double wheel front and back tractor we followed yesterday bouncing
all over the road at 30 mph seemed to deter all but the bravest of
drivers but he at least had the decency to pull over and let the queue
past.

Agreed on both counts.

Well you can't say 'doesn't' because we were party to it several times
yesterday.

Ok, how would one judge that an manoeuvre that included overtaking say
20 cars and a 40 tonner was successful? Just because no one died or
had a crash. Can you guarantee me that in every instance there wasn't
an element of luck in their action?

The only reason there wasn't a crash on at least two occasions
yesterday was because of the diligence and tolerance of the drivers
who were barged in front of (not me in either case). In both cases
though the entire queue *did* overtake said truck as and when each
driver saw it was safe to do based on their own abilities.

This wasn't a race track so why should the driver behind the lorry
have to wait while someone queue jumps down the outside before he
overtakes (as was also the case at least once where the front driver
actually indicated then had to cancel when said car came bundling
right down the outside)?

T i m

 

No, that's fine if you have the speed / room / power and said cars are
traveling reasonable distances apart (as seemed to be the case
yesterday when people weren't bunched up behind a lorry etc). In fact
one thing I like about driving in the 'country' (basically outside
London) is people do leave reasonable distances between each other so
if you want to hop your way though that's fine (and most other drivers
actually assist this by keeping over / slowing slightly etc).

Taking 20 cars and a 40 tonner may be pushing that a bit though? ;-)

T i m

 

And at what point would you know that to be a fact?

You would overtake them either individually or in small chunks (as
Champ said).

Of course, because 'that's the point' of bikes isn't it? However,
there must still be a place to pull into, if you can't make it in one
hop. However I believe cars are far more tolerant (on the whole) about
making us some space than if it were another car.

HTH. ;-)

T i m

 

If said drivers had been driving correctly they'd have left a gap in
front of them big enough to accommodate an overtaking car. I don't
call the failure to do so either diligent or tolerant.

 

It's the forcing the gap that adds time. Sometimes maybe just a few
seconds, but if the person you've overtaken doesn't want to play ball,
it can be significantly longer. If you've never experienced anyone
deliberately closing the gap to stop you pulling in, you've been very
lucky! Knowing that can happen means I won't always overtake in a place
where I would do if there was a sizeable gap to pull into before
hitting the brakes.

--
Krusty

'03 Tiger 955i
'02 MV Senna (for sale) '96 Tiger (for sale)
'79 Fantic Hiro 250 (for sale) '81 Corvette (for sale)

 

*I* wouldn't care whether they were planning to overtake or not. I go
when I want to go.

Well yes, & force your way into the queue if necessary - which is what
you implied is wrong.


--
Krusty

'03 Tiger 955i
'02 MV Senna (for sale) '96 Tiger (for sale)
'79 Fantic Hiro 250 (for sale) '81 Corvette (for sale)

 

OK, I see what you mean now. I agree that overtaking a line of 12
cars is harder than 3 or 4, but it's bound to be, innit.

 

No, that wasn't the real issue more that the assumption that no one
was going to overtake *ever* and that it is assumed they would be able
to barge in where their wasn't a space. I have no issue with anyone
overtaking anyhow as long as everyone else around is also aware /
prepared (and as we know that's not always the case) and no one has to
change speed and direction to accommodate them (within reason etc).

Also as mentioned elsewhere, *sometime* people just won't let such
over takers in, especially when they have seen them do something they
deem to be 'taking the piss'. Much though I would happily see some
twat become a hood ornament for a Scania it could easily be some other
innocent coming the other way who pays the price (so I generally let
them in).

Erm not sure. In case we are crossed here ... nob overtaking queue of
cars (and lorry) doing 40 mph, waiting for opportunity to overtake
lorry. Bloke in tractor pulls out on the other side to go in opposite
direction to lorry, cars and overtaking nob, not realising car will be
on the other side of the road.

Yeabut, I CGAF about whose fault it is. I would be more interested in
said lump of pigiron rolling onto me and my family.

I have vowed that should I ever have the misfortune to witness the
predicable consequences of someone not taking reasonable care about
their actions that I would stop and repeatedly punch them about their
already blood and glass covered head. ;-)

T i m

 

I suppose, however there is correctly (as in leaving reasonable gaps)
and correctly (or not) as in overtaking a long (as in several)
vehicles and as with the Shogun, not making it and having to force
their way in.

Those not leaving sufficient gaps are only a risk to each other and
was only happening at all because of the circumstances (waiting
appropriate opportunity to overtake). When they weren't actually
waiting to overtake they were all spaced out nicely (except the Shogun
who tried to get into our boot several times).

The interesting thing re having a GPS is when we set off our ETA was
13:18. We actually arrived (some 4 hours later) at 13:22. The 'delay'
was some traffic going through Lincoln town centre, not the lorries we
were slowed by during overtaking (even though it was quite
frustrating).

T i m

 

So - lemme get this straight...

You've no problem with people overtaking a queue. As long as they're on a
bike or it's "their turn".

But if they might just overtake part of the queue and tuck back in part
way down the line, some people might decide to get vigilante on them, and
you'd be quite happy to see the "queue-jumper" die as a result.

Gotcha.

I was thinking more about this mythical "innocent at risk" being somebody
who pulled out of the queue because it was "their turn", and got rear-
ended by the "queue-jumping knob".

Obviously, somebody who overtakes when it's not clear to do so is a bit
of a cuntbubble - no matter _where_ in the queue they've come from. After
all, where in the queue they've come from is a bit irrelevant if it's not
clear to overtake.

Mind you, anybody who turns out of a side junction without looking
properly is also being a bit of a twat.

So we're all agreed that this tractor coming out of a field is a bit of a
red herring, given the context? Good. So - back to the discussion at hand.

You're perfectly happy for bikes to pass an entire queue of cars beind a
wagon/tractor/Granny-inna-Micra, but not for another car to do so.

Gotcha.

It's nice to be sure we're all clear here.

Just one last question. What about bike-based trikes, though? Car or bike
for the purposes of deciding blame? Outfits?

 

Ah bless - it's hard for you to say "you're right", isn't it.

 

Go for it!

As long as I feel it's being done with due care and consideration no.
The consideration bit could include not queue jumping the queue of
people also waiting to overtake. Like with many things in life, even
if you have the means to do different you should really still take
your turn (we aren't abroad after all) ;-)

With the consideration of the para above, yes. And I am talking what I
believe most people would prefer rather than hard rules etc.

You nearly have it. No, if they are taking small hops into existing
spaces that's fine. If they are forcing other people to swerve or slow
because half way through the manoeuvre they realise they have bitten
off more they can chew I wish them all they deserve. Based on the
fact that his/her action could be endangering all our lives (not just
because they got ahead etc).

Good. ;-)

Ah and no, that wasn't my thought. As has been mentioned elsewhere
it's not unreasonable to expect people to use good observation,
especially when that involves a low speed differential (~20 mph in the
case of someone overtaking at 60 mph a vehicle doing 40 mph). Someone
pulling out of a blind driveway may not have quite the same
opportunity to see said nor would expect said doing 60mph.

Indeed. And how do *you* (we) decide 'when it's not clear (for them)
to do so'? When they crash and burn or when, in your judgment based on
your perception of the situation you believe their actions are risky
possibly? How does anyone make that call, unless the outcome is
obvious due to the number of body parts spread all over the road?

Correct. However there (for most of us I suspect) is reasonable and
unreasonable.

Indeed, but, may not have the advantage of a clear line of sight nor
may expect someone traveling so fast on the wrong side of the road. Is
it not the 'over taker who is supposed to not overtake when passing
such places (side roads, crests and dips, bends, hump back bridges,
pedestrian crossings etc etc)

I disagree. The reason it's perfectly on topic is because in order to
overtake say 20 cars and a 40 ton artic, all traveling at ~40 mph will
actually take a considerable distance. Possibly a greater distance
than one could reasonably see down a sunny tree lines single
carriageway and narrow road (some single carriageway roads have 'hard
shoulders' where vehicles can move to to allow better overtaking. We
have used said in Scotland etc). The roads I am talking about
yesterday were often narrow and banked or hedged either side.

Happy, possibly depending how it was done. ie, yes at an appropriate
speed and positioning, no if it was on the back wheel.

I read some stuff about all this somewhere ...

"162 Before overtaking you should make sure
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to
overtake.

163 Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should
* move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have
started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as
soon as you can but do not cut in.

167 DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road
users. For example
* when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down

168 Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a
steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle
pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving
unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back
to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the
gap in front of you. [1]

169 (and a point in my first post).
Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving
a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if
necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass."

Now you might say that a lorry doing it's maximum allowed speed (40
mph on a derestricted single in this case) isn't slow moving but it is
slower moving than all the other traffic (by 33%) and so should allow
potential faster (but possibly not 'fast') vehicles to overtake. So
that wouldn't stop Mr impatient bowling past the whole string as soon
as he comes up behind it but it would stop the queue forming in the
first place so removing the whole issue.

I'm not sure you have. ;-)

See above.

In the rules world I'd say the same as cars.

However in the real world I feel they would be treated more
sympathetically (the car drivers see a human on the vehicle so it
become more personal AND would generally allow them in more than a car
(especially a big / sports / 4x4) because there would be some interest
because it was 'different').

There has been many a time I have let a vehicle out into the rush hour
traffic because I was interested to see closer what it was.

Cheers, T i m

[1] "Pulls into the gap" not "Creates a gap that wasn't there" note.
;-)

 

Oooh, lemme guess - in the same way I'd decide when it's clear for ME to
overtake? In other words, can I get past without hitting something?

Indeed. So it's not a problem for somebody to start to head past the
queue, then decide that conditions have changed, and dip back in further
up the queue?

Assuming that people who can't be bothered to overtake aren't trying to
play vigilante TrafPlod, there really should be no issue with finding a
gap of a suitable size.

Ah, yes, that was it.

Quite.

So this is all a bit of a non-issue. If there's nothing coming, go for
it. If somebody further up the queue is also going to go for it, then
they've seen the same opportunity that you have, but earlier - so they're
already signalling their intention and getting into position. No problem.
If a hazard appears, then you dip into the gap that's available, and the
person you've just tucked in front of adjusts the gap and everybody's
happy.

Good-oh.

Oh, wait. Somebody up ahead was half-asleep, didn't notice the gap in
time, but it's your fault, so they're going to hang you out to dry. Nice.

 

Then that's your call.

Where did I say "overtake in small chunks and force your way in"? I
would only approve the 'small chunks' thing *if* there were spaces to
pull into,

"162 Before overtaking you should make sure

* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to
overtake."

What was funny yesterday was Shogun went to overtake the last few cars
and lorry but failed to observe the lorry was about to pull out round
a very large tractor! He actually had to stop (on the wrong side of
the road) and wait till someone was willing to let him back into the
queue he had just overtaken.

Well it made I laugh anyway. ;-) [1]

T i m

[1] He had already overtaken me but didn't have to barge in as I'd
left sufficient space (possibly more than usual as I was loaded).

 

Which, if everybody is following the HC rules you quote, there will be.
Either end of every vehicle.

So - lemme get this straight...

He passed the couple of cars cleanly, _then_ the wagon indicated and
pulled out into his path?

Yet you're complaining about the Shogun driver not playing by the HC?

 

Hmmm ...

"162

Before overtaking you should make sure

* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to
overtake"

Now the fact that the overtaken drivers are not leaving 'sufficient
space' does not preclude anyone breaking the rule above.

5/10, have another go. ;-)

T i m

 

You're saying you shouldn't overtake someone if they're waiting to
overtake someone else. Why not? It's actually safer to overtake them
while they're going relatively slowly rather than wait until they've
speeded up a bit.

Don't agree. I think it makes more sense for the fast cars to overtake
the middle-speed cars *before* the middle-speed cars overtake the slow
cars. I see no point in the fastest cars having to wait for everyone
else to sort themselves out before they're allowed to overtake.

 

Where did I say it did? Let me repeat my post, as you don't seem to
be able to read it in its current setting.

"If said drivers had been driving correctly they'd have left a gap in
front of them big enough to accommodate an overtaking car. I don't
call the failure to do so either diligent or tolerant."

You say the overtaken drivers are being diligent and tolerant, I say
they're not because they're not leaving room. And the simple fact is
I'm right and you're wrong.

There is a separate argument to be had about the rights and wrongs of
the drivers doing the overtaking, which is being discussed in a
different part of the thread. You appear to be confusing the two.

 

Good and are there ever times when there it doesn't pan out?

No, as long as there_is_a_gap and assuming no one was also about to
overtake.

Let me try to explain.

We have all been bundling along at ~60 mph on a bouncy bit of straight
in places, single carriageway. We all (lets say 20 cars) come up
behind a lorry doing an indicated 40 mph (actually 37 according to the
GPS). One by one the cars are picking their way past the lorry and
because of the relatively slow speed and lack of opportunity to
forward plan (you see a gap and go for it) they are all bunched up.
21st car comes up behind (seen in my interior and offside mirror as
he's sitting out on the middle of the road) ... waits a few seconds
then goes straight down the outside, hoping to pass all 20 cars and
the lorry. In a couple of the instances they pull it off, in a couple
of others they have to brake hard then force their way into a space
that didn't exist.

I agree, there shouldn't, and if we were all doing say 50 mph there
probably wouldn't have been (as experienced on many instances on the
remaining journey).

Wish to pass. Not to barge in.

IF. However, if you don't know that it's clear (as was obviously the
case at least twice) then that doesn't then give you permission to
inconvenience someone else for your 'mistake'. We could all have been
doing that ... leap frogging each other in an effort to get directly
behind the lorry, luckily we weren't.

Yes, but you sound like you are talking as a bike rider. You can't
'dip' 2 tonne of Shogun doing ~50 mph into even a Shogun length space
going at 37 mph without loads of brakes and steering. I have agreed
all the above is much more doable and acceptable when on a bike (and
why I said I wished I was on one in my OP). ;-)

Not quite sure what you are saying there?

Thinking out loud ... (and it's only my view of course) is much of
this has a right time and place (assuming we are complying with the
law at all times etc). ;-)

I believe there is a form of body language on the road, a scale of
road behaviour that is acceptable by the majority and that which is
not.

A classic example of where say lane two of a two lane road is closed
off and the traffic is slowly (stop-start) moving through the
restriction. Both lanes may be backed up from the restriction and we
(in England) slowly seem to be getting the 'zip' process for merging
lanes.

Similarly if the queue is mainly down lane one (because everyone has
observed the closed lane two) anyone going right down the outside is
also likely to find people reticent to letting them force their way
in. If it was a free_for_all, if there was no etiquette then we would
all dive down the outside but we don't (and ok by most when on a bike
as you are unlikely to hold anyone up).

If however you don't go right down the outside you but match the speed
near the back of the queue you are more likely to be 'let in' because
people think you have just overshot and aren't taking the piss. [1]

However, if the traffic is moving through the restriction at say 50
mph, anyone leaving it to the last minute and 'forcing' their way in
(ignoring the countdown markers and warnings of the lane closure for
the last few hundred yards) is also likely to get someone's back up.

I believe the reason the minority of people can get away (at all) with
this sort of thing is the majority don't do it.

Cheers, T i m

[1] I saw a lorry, sit in the outside lane, matching the speed of the
slow moving traffic in lane 1 and saw some nob actually go round the
outside of him (half on the central median grass and 2" off the Armco)
to then force his way into the traffic 100 yards further ahead. The
reason this sort of thing pisses some people off is they have only
gained their advantage at the cost of everyone behind them.

p.s. I've even seen similar when someone in a Transit truck went up
the inside of two rows of queuing traffic, two wheels on the road, two
wheels on the grass. All went well for him till no one let him force
back in to get round some street furniture and ran into it. As I
trundled slowly past 30 seconds later they were all setting off on
foot. ;-)

p.p.s. And I'd forgotten the two cars that overtook a long string of
cars but going straight over a central right turn filter and both long
chevron areas before and after the junction.

 

Strangely, yes. During which time, you dip into one of the gaps that's
there - assuming a bunch of wannabe-trafplods haven't decided to get all
kangaroo-court on you, just because they have a downer on the whole
concept of overtaking without a letter giving them written permission,
signed by every other driver within a ten mile radius.

So how come somebody further back sees the opportunity first?

Actually, I'm not.

Clue: If an overtaking opportunity appears, it doesn't appear for the guy
at the back of the line first. It takes a while to get to him. A while
during which the alert ones further up the line could be indicating and
pulling out already.