Noyes on AMA. Again

Well-attended races will increase the likelihood of attracting series
sponsors, individual team sponsors, etc. Obviously big TV numbers will
do much more, but you have to start somewhere. Big crowds will mean
more promoters will want in, and may even help develop more road
courses. More events means TV becomes more viable, they don't end up
going weeks between races.

I won't argue with that, but something that can't even get fans to
show up at the gate won't get shown either. Hockey might be a good
example of what I'm saying, traditionally teams have had very rabid
following that sells out arenas, but it has never had that broad of an
appeal in the US to drive big TV audiences, so the league has had
considerably more difficulty in putting together a TV package than
other major team sports. But the live crowds have been sufficient to
drive a professional-level sport anyway, it's just hasn't resulted in
the same kind of income for everyone that the other sports see. Today
there are, what, 32 teams in the NHL? That might ultimately be similar
to what bike racing can realistically achieve in this country.

Qatar is a rather unique case, and what drives that race is a
government that is willing to lose considerable money in order to have
the event, and it also allows tobacco sponsors to make their pitch. So
it really comes down to the royal family or whatever and Marlboro. The
promoters don't get a cut of the TV money and they also have to hand
Dorna the trackside signage, so they really only make back what they
are charged by Dorna (~$1.5M) with gate receipts. If Dorna collects
that and can put it on TV, they're happy, and this event also helps
keep the Ducati MotoGP effort afloat, via Marlboro's happiness. But
there's no way you can run an entire series this way.

I don't think rules matter that much to TV, or Nascar would have never
even gotten off the ground on the air with their convoluted, always-
changing rules. What really matters to TV is the feature class, the
rest is for the hard core. Close racing at the front matters, but how
deep the field is and what's going on down there doesn't. It's easy to
follow the leaders on TV, but can be much tougher at the track once
the leaders are into backmarkers. Etc.

Again, I'm talking about growing the live gate, which is where it all
starts. Skipping that and going directly to TV is a big risk, and it
also is likely a strategy which would include gimmicks, which is how
most people probably think you can make a quick spash and quick buck.
That's part of what I would be concerned about with some of the
possible suitors for this job, they may not have an interest in the
long-term health of the sport at heart.

 

Track attendance fnumbers are *nowhere near* as attractive to

You know, the very first damn thing they should work on is simply
getting a mention on the local news broadcasts and newspapers. I live
in the 5th or so largest city in the nation and our local
sportscasters don't even *mention* that there was a race, or even a
whole season, much less who won it. Not for the AMA. Not for MotoGP.
Not even when an American won it all against the GOAT elect in a
thrilling finale of the closest season in years. Not a peep.

Getting results and standings announced regularly on the sports
segment of the local news broadcasts in all the major metropolitans
shouldn't be that hard and would be a significant first step in
getting the visibility out there. Right now I don't know if the
broadcasters just don't care or if the AMA doesn't do anything to
inform them.

 

It comes down to two problems: the mainstream media, be it print or
electronic, generally want to report on things they know about and things
their audience understands. The only thing that is an exception is if there
is a known personality involved. I'm sure the closest TV station and
newspaper to Owensboro cover Nicky for races, testing, and other bit of
information. If you can get a sports editor that knows motorcycle racing,
you might have more luck. Even with Indianapolis having been historically a
motor racing hotbed, I wouldn't bet the house that coverage will be even
half that of the Brickyard 400 or the F1 race simply because the writers and
their audiences won't deeply understand it.

The Ducati two seater with Mamola and Team Hammer giving rides to the media
are a good start, but you'd almost have to begin with a core group of media
and give them a junket to each event in the series, almost giving them carte
blanche to go where they pleased in order to let them learn what it's all
about.

The other problem is overcoming the public's perception of motorcycle
racing. Many people are turned off by the high school/20's guys that put on
an aftermarket pipe, rev their engines and do wheelies down main street.
Sure the same kids do that in cars too, but everybody drives a car. It makes
a difference.

T

 

I'll do my best to overlook your pettiness and thin skin, but no promises..

(Heh, that sounds like a couple chic's I know..;-)

Yeah, they have a history of screwing things up, NOT!

What? You mean making their series the biggest thing ever, or just
picking up the phone and bagging a big-time sponsor? You're right, we
don't want that..(wow!)

Again, we don't want any drama, nope, it's just fine when all the box
guys can't even see one another at the flag and most race winners are
determined by the end of L2..

Ya'know, I read that 4 times and I still don't know what you meant, but
as far as driver mobility goes I'm pretty sure more guys are trying to
get into Nascar from other series than want to get out.

A failed series? You mean like right now?

A meaningful hand? Dude, I got a news flash for you, motorcycle racing
in this country is for sale, period. "Direction" be damned, whoever
buys it will do as they see fit and the AMA will have a role only if
the new owners desire it, which would be surprising to me given their
history..

Oh, you mean like MGP and Rossi?

Julian's right, it is different here and it's time we go our own
direction instead of following and this just might be the right time to
do it.. (heh, or not, who fuckin' knows?) Let the Brits do what they
want, let WSB do whatever it is they do and let MGP anoint Rossi, or
Pboi GOAT, what difference does that make to USAin's? Beyond the few
guys now in MGP I'm thinkin' not too much..

Now we get down to the meat of the matter, you're afraid someone's
finally gonna put the OEM's in their place..

The OEM's want to sell their stuff and use racing to that end and as
long as M/C racing in this country is OEM centric it will remain small
time, no matter who runs the show, that you refuse to grasp that simple
logic/fact is beyond me..

It looks as if the litre's are here to stay and if so, I'd think we
might only have two classes in the near future, SSport and SB..

GP will do as GP sees fit and I fail to see how that impacts anything a
new promoter might choose to do..

Finally, common ground..

So, in other words you would like to see someone infuse a bunch of
bucks into US M/C racing and pretty much keep it as it is. I've got
real money saying that ain't gonna happen Mark. Whoever buys it will
make changes, that is pretty much assured. I hope those changes make
the series more rider-centric, because as long as it remains
equipment-centric it will never grow beyond what it is today, no chance
in hell!

Are you on acid, or something? If a big-time player makes a move on
Proracing I would imagine the AMA will go back to their main mission
while, or if they still can..

"Core" fans, at least most the one's I know think right now is pretty
bizarre. On growing the sport, the media is key and when I say media I
really mean TV. Now, ask yourself who might have the clout to open
those doors? Hmm, Flamini, nope. Hardcard? Not a chance. Dorna? Maybe,
but not anywhere near what Edmunson, or France could probably do with a
few phone calls..

BOOO! Surprised?

Mark, today's SB grid is filled with 7,8, or maybe 9 factory rides that
no one and I mean NO ONE can purchase. Sure, when the current years
model are released you can go buy one and trick it out, but even the
deepest pockets can't buy all the stuff the factory guys have and even
if they could they'd still be a year behind in development. Bottom
line, the OEM's have a built-in advantage and this has nothing to do
with racing per se, it has to do with using their influence to hawk
their wares!

Another news flash my friend, DIS isn't going away, not until they say
so anyway..

Look, I don't have the time, or patience to argue this crap forever
with you, as I know it's futile. You seem real happy the way things are
and I'm happy for you, but if racing in this country is to grow beyond
it's small time status many things have got to change and while KR
isn't one my of my fav's by any stretch of the imagination, I do think
he's got a few very good ideas on how to do it.

As you know I'm not a big Nascar fan, but tell me this, when you're out
in traffic and see a car with a #24, 9, or whatever decal on the
bumper, or rear window, does it say Dodge, Ford, Toyota, or Chevy on it
too? Driver centric Mark, sure, folks like brands, but they tend to
like people more and that's one of the reasons Nascar has done and
probably will continue to do so well. And to follow, if Nascar is so
anti-OEM why did Toyota bother to spend a ton of buck$ to run in it? I
and most everyone here are very aware that you don't like the Speedway
Blvd. address, but if M/C racing is to finally go mainstream and get
bigger changes must be made and I think you'd be hard pressed to find
any outfit more qualified to do just that. Do I think they will? Maybe,
though I'd imagine they'll demand a free hand and given the money
involved I can understand why..

Now to address HP caps, pit stops and ECU's. Tell me this Mark, how
many tracks in this, or for that matter, any country are able to handle
220hp SB's, tires not withstanding? I'm thinking maybe only one here
and that one only marginally so and this is coming from a dude that
spent a whole shitload of his life trying to find more ponies, not
less..

Pit stops and longer races make for much better TV, as they add drama,
as well as another facet of racing the people in this country already
understand and appreciate..

ECU's, well, I've sorta vacillated on this for a while and while TC may
end up being a good thing in street apps, or MGP I've come to the
conclusion it's not so good for racing in this country, or for that
matter, the show. TC should be done with the right hand, not a black
box, though to be honest, I realize that genie will be hard to put back
in it's bottle..

Pace cars need to be used, restarts are dangerous and red flags not
only suck, but stall the action..

Rain, no wet racing, ever! The very nature of 2 wheeled racing is
dangerous enough without doing it in the rain. Rain dates are a must!

You claim it all starts at the track and while you know I do like a
nice facility, cold beer and decent chow I overwhelmingly disagree. It
starts on the tube, TV will either make, or break any attempt to
promote bike racing in this country beyond it's dismal performance to
date. A couple decent commentators wouldn't hurt either, but that's for
another time..

In closing these are a few of my off the cuff thoughts on how a new
promoter might bring M/C road racing more mainstream, I know the very
thought of an Edmunson/France thing makes you cringe, but if it's to
grow it's got to change and I'm fairly certain those guys have the
juice and hopefully the will to do just that. We'll see and I'd
imagine, fairly soon too...

 

Isn't this special, I'm being psychoanalyzed by a confirmed sociopath, wow!

This, coming from a guy who really hasn't been anywhere south of LA, or
east of Utah, WOW! Dude, I've spent more time just traveling to races
than you have spent doing all things race related, so please stop,
you're only making yourself out a larger fool..

My so called defense were the cold hard facts and really nothing more.
You can spin it anyway you feel the need to, but it doesn't, or won't
change them and I'm sorry for you if they don't fit your Califrisco
world. I really and I mean *really* don't care who buys it, I only
pointed out one outfit that would probably be the most capable and has
the most expertise at promoting racing, if you don't like it, don't
blame me..(Actually, there's probably probably one other too, Live
Nation/Clear channel)

I'm a life member of the AMA which means at one time I (T2 actually)
put some money in their coffers and in doing so sorta' paid for my
right to bitch about what they do. Hmm, I wonder, have you bothered to
join? Somehow, I kinda' doubt it..

Err, I believe I said I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with just
2 classes, SB And SSport..

Actually, it's very American, but again, like it, or not, that's pretty
much how most folks relate to racing in this country, though your lame
attempt to bastardize what I said is noted. And by the way, you're the
only guy I've heard say anything about driving out the factory's, the
OEM's aren't gonna go far, that is, if they go anywhere at all..

OMG! Now you quote Flamini? Heh, you must know your shit's weak when
you stoop that low..

Most thing's you write are debatable, unfortunately, they're usually
warped too..

In fact, I said it may have a place in street apps, as well as MGP and
even though I didn't know how one would go about putting it back in the
box, I don't think it's good for the show in a national series..

More bastardization? For Christ's sake dude, stop embellishing and quit
with the Nascar analogies, 'kay? Those same guy's run the Rolex series
too, you know anything about them? No? Yeah, I didn't think so..

Huh? Wow, you just jump around when the facts don't fit your plan, huh?
Again Mark, I didn't make this happen, I only gave, or suggested an
outcome, so, don't shoot the messenger. Oh, I forgot, that's what you
do when you think something's not going your way and oddly enough,
sorta' like a few bitches I know. Hmm..

The factory's invest money in racing? Actually Mark, I think if you
check you'll find the factory's advertise in racing and they do that to
sell their bikes and trust me on this, if they felt for a New York
second they didn't have to, they would not. They will probably jump up
and down and beat their collective heads against the wall, cry and
scream too, but the reality is, they need racing more than racing needs
them. So, any leave they may take will be a short one..

Do you come up with all this shit yourself, or are you in some sort of
tricked-out group looney pen? I mean, damn! That was an amazing piece
of something, though exactly what I'm not sure, but awesome
nonetheless!!

Bottom line? Typical Nusbaum, when thing's aren't going the way you
want and you can't respond intellectually, you belittle, or attack the
source, I should have known better. Little wonder why you're so
ostracized here. Oh well..

Be that as it is, I thought the idea here was to look at how a new
promoter/owner would, or could grow the series. Apparently you want
things to stay as they are, with 2, maybe 3 guys a time zone ahead of
the rest of the factory guys that are another couple time zones ahead
of everyone else. I guess so you can bitch about back markers, or
something. Anyway and just to clear things up a little, do us all a
favor and grace us with your infinite wisdom on these three, okay?

1. Why would anyone (in their right mind) invest money in a losing
enterprise such as the current Proracing scheme without making changes?
(why?)

2. Who is positioned and has the clout to make it financially viable? (Who?)

3. How might they go about it? (How?)

These are as straight forward as it gets, so there's no need to quote
Flamini, suggest a new class, or any of your other patented subterfuge,
just tell us what you think might happen, not what you'd like to happen
and if you don't know, don't bother...

 

It's not _all_ rules, just elemental ones that need to be consistent. What
got NASCAR off the ground was the identity of personalities within the
sport. And that is no different than any other sport on TV. One event is
slightly unique to that - the Olympics. Americans don't concern themselves
with most Olympic sports until 3-4 months before the Oly games themselves.
They will watch the events and learn personalities as the games go on,
because the personalities are spoon-fed to them. People don't watch most of
the respective sports because they like the sports themselves, otherwise the
sport would be higher profile during it's own annual season. People watch
because of nationalistic fervor, because it is frequently edited into
critical moments, and because it's what the water fountain conversation is
about (and as a subset of that, it's fairly easy to appear as a
knowledgeable expert). But even the media knows that isn't enough, so they
create all those inane "up close and personal" segments (something they know
is so important they start research and interviews two years before the big
event). Even with the "specialness" of the Olympics, they still know "you
don't know who's playin' without a program". Last fall, toward the end of
the NASCAR "chase", I had the (probably 70 year old) mother of one of my
clients tell me that on the previous Sunday, she couldn't find her Jeff
Gordon jacket (maybe her son hid it, who knows) so she took a sticky note,
wrote 24 on it and pinned it to her shirt so it would stay on while she was
jumping up and down toward the end of the race. She probably couldn't have
cared if they were driving F1 cars or Yugos. She loves the sport because
she's a fan of the competitors.

Growing the live gate just isn't going to take the sport far enough even
with 10 times the number of events. Sponsors need volume unless they are
philanthropic, and you simply can't achieve the volume or justify the
sponsorship with a 50 or even 100k live gate at a dozen events. That's 1.2
million total viewings max., spread out over an entire season. And the
sponsors' advertisements are only effective within your immediate area. Do
you think Miller was built with the expectation of a 100k live gate for AMA
or most other professional motorsports events? Doubtful. Unless a motorport
event event has a tradition of live attendance, TV producers don't care how
many people may or may not be in the stands. Naturally, the promoter does,
but if the event is a big or unique enough sell on TV, then TV will
subsidize the promoter to suport the event. That _can_ lead to gimmickry if
TV decides the popularity of the event supercedes the location and tries to
coerce a switch to less costly (for them) location. That's when the
sanctioning body hopefully has enough balls to organize with the promoter
and the surrounding area that benefits from the economic impact of the event
and persuade TV not to yank them around. If Network A tells them to kiss
off, at that point they can sell their already successful product to Network
B with conditions in place to keep the monkeys from running the zoo.

 

Not only is he the "favorite whipping boy", he usually brings the whip, too.

 

It's really late here so I'll just make a few quick comments, then follow up
tomorrow evening.

Yes, the NASCAR "phenomena" is more complex than that. Lots of sports are
looking to see what they can learn and apply from NASCAR. Plus I wasn't
implying that motorcycle road racing in the US should mirror NASCAR anyway.
My point was that there are (for non city-based teams) two commodities:
events and personalities. NASCAR has a big pile of personalities and a
couple of big events (well to me, as I don't closely follow it) anyway:
Daytona and Bristol. As far as developing their fan base, the rest of the
tracks are pretty much un-unique. To me, that is part of how they were able
to expand the race series from the South to across the country. Yes, it is a
social phenomenon. Do you think MC racing in the US is much less of one?

I'm not talking about it either. There's nothing like the sensation of being
there. But television is sanitzed to a lot of that, ergo the live gate is
inconsequential to TV. Look at all the empty stands at the Daytona 200. The
Doha is a different animal because it simply functions (as far as the race
promoter is concerned) as an advertisement for Qatar. We know that other
than the track facility, you were less than enthralled with Turkey (I don't
know if anyone who reads rmr has figured out why you picked that race to
travel to). Not a challenge, just a clarification: was it stated that the
reason there is no more Turkey on the schedule was due to poor attendance?

(New) sports (in regard to television) don't work that way anymore. TV
contracts someone to create an event; like the X Games. If it needs
nurturing, TV either puts it on a subsidiary channel or buys airtime for the
first year and promotes the hell out of it.

That's why I said _most_. Regardless, we've all agreed that SLC is in the
middle of a rather large, fairly desolate desert. It certainly doesn't fit
the typical race course population demographic.

That can be partially obscured by camera angles.

I agree, but not entirely. What I said was that if an event is a unique
enough sell (like Daytona or Bristol for NASCAR) and TV sees viewership
value in the location (what I should have added was "where a different
location might lose viewers, say moving the MGP race from Laguna to
Thunderhill"), TV could subsidize the promoter. As long as they also pay
Dorna or whomever the appropriate fees, Dorna couldn't give a hoot. But it
all depends on what value TV perceives the product to have. But a question
here: do Dorna and FGSport produce their own TV show and sell the feed, or
does a company come in and pay Dorna for the rights, then sell the feed
themselves? I don't know.

They do, just not in the traditional way. IMO some (like Malaysia, China,
Qatar) probably don't get great attendance, but the gate is subsidized by
the government as a source of pride and as an indicator of economic
legitimacy. Whether Turkey left the promoter out on his own, I don't know.
But (Turkey) is just a failed business decision, or should we be sentimental
and see it some other way?

Cite, please.

 

I thought the evil Bernie Ecclestone had a hand in this. Something like
F1 buying the rights to the circuit and refusing the bikes entry.

On which note be very afraid. There's a rumour that F1 wants to come to
Philip Island.

 

You do that waaay too much and not just with me either. I dunno how
anyone else feels when you pull that shit, but it's frustrating as hell
to me and almost always makes any "discussion" with you turn south. If
I had more to say on the class thing, I would have! As far as I'm
concerned, your constant embellishing, or adding what you perceive as
someone's idea is about the lamest thing you do and I wished you could,
or would back-off that down just a notch, or 5..

Mark, there all all sorts of independent shops that build race engines
and chassis, there most likely would be in M/C road racing too, that
is, if there ever is a level playing field..

See above..

Yada, yada, yada. Look, we were talking in the context of how a new
owner would grow the sport IN THIS COUNTRY, remember? I suggested that
possibly it was time to go our own way, lead instead of following,
that's all. Whether or not that happens I can't say, though I do
believe there will be major, if not dramatic changes made no matter who
ends up calling the shots..

Tire contracts with riders are a "sticky" matter, as they need close
scrutiny, not so much in the fine print, but on race weekend. So, if
there isn't any favoritism happening (everybody picks from the same
pile) then I've got no problem, it's only when "specials" show up that
I would and as far as I know, or have heard, that shit don't happen
here..
Choosing a spec tire does nothing to enhance anything other than a
tireco's bottom line, or in the case of WSB, a Flamini bank account..

Again, I said I felt it hurts the show and doesn't have a place in a
national series. Call me old school, or whatever, but I'd rather see
slidin' and burnin' than pop, pop, pop...

The point was your Nasbike crap that for some fuckin' weird reason you
think I want. Dude, this whole thing wasn't about what I want, it was
about how I though it MIGHT go. My, or your vision is absolutely
meaningless in the context "Merkan M/C racing, as I'm fairly certain
neither one of us are gonna' ever be able to dig deep enough to afford
a "vision."

What they do in MGP impacts a new owner in no way, shape or form,
period and I'd bet no one involved, unless of course it's Dorna, will
give it a thought..

The folks working for the OEM's in racing certainly desire to race,
that's why they work for them, duh! However and unfortunately, it's the
bean counters that influence the real decisions and if you think they
give a flyin' fuk about racing just to race you're certifiable.
Ducati's a different deal, though at the end of the day, not that much..

That's your opinion and I respect it as such, even though you are dead wrong..

Yes, it very well could be..

Competing series? Such as?

Ban? Who said anything about banning?

He damn sure deserved a ride and he is a champion, that he could not
secure one anywhere speaks volumes on the current scheme..

Again, wrong! I said the fact they couldn't find one was indicative of
the sad state of Proracing..

I don't know for certain, but I've heard from a couple different places
they've lost money every year since Chevy bailed..

Dingman was talking out his ass! Consider this. Who has a better
relationship, or has more influence over tracks and site promoters, the
AMA, France, or for that matter, Live Nation? I dunno about you, but
I'm going with the guys who not only own a bunch of those tracks, but
pretty much decides who, what and when on almost all the other ones
too. The only thing I see the AMA bringing to the table is a rule book
and a name. Now, you may think they're worth a bunch, I do not and I'd
be very surprised if Grand AM, or Live Nation do either..

Oh, so now they're selling a money maker, yeah, right..

So, your answer is, it can't be made viable, or much more than it
already is, okay..

OMG! Talk about a watershed event!! WOW!!!
Spoiler alert!

{scroll}


















Mark says Tom's right!!!!
(see, that wasn't so bad, was it? notice I'm not gloating;-)

Yeah, yeah and I want to win the Lotto, but I was only asking for what
you thought might happen, remember? Jeeez, gettin' a straight answer
out of you is like trying to find gas after a hurricane, even when you
finally do, it's almost always watered down..

If that was an invitation, I'm thinkin' I'll have to pass. If
exclamatory, then I'll add this one to my W column and move on.
In either event, (with respect to Elvis;-) thank you, thank you very much..

It's just amazing to me how you can bitch about the very same things
you do all the time!

Just because someone says something you don't agree with doesn't make
it a lie, or false, though in this particular case, damn near
everything I said about AMA and what was gonna happen to Proracing was
dead fukin' on...

 

WTF are you talking about this time? Dude, you need to relax, writing
shit like that will make you old and most likely crippled waay before
your time..

I'm sorry if your feelings get bruised when I, or someone else throws
your brand of bullshit right back at you, but there's really no need to
go bat-shit and meltdown again, as in doing so you remove any doubt
from everyone's mind of your current mental stability. It's fairly
obvious to even the casual reader here that you have some issues and
for that reason I try not to push your buttons too much, but I admit,
occasionally temptation gets the better of me. I guess you haven't
figured it out yet, so I'll give you a huge clue, a lot of the stuff I
find time to write is done tongue and cheek and not (so much) aimed at
anyone, or any one thing in particular and I always try to represent
things as clearly as I remember. However, you seem to have everyone
catalogued, Bond's a Yank hater, Champ's a chump, Carl's a jerk
outsider, Tweak's a redneck and on and on ad Nusbaumium. I guess you
haven't affixed a label to Alexey yet, as he hasn't been around that
long, though there's probably little doubt in anyone's mind it's
coming. The point I'm trying to make is there is no one label to fit
each personality in RMR, or anywhere else for that matter, well, except
maybe in your world, because in doing so you only isolate yourself,
hence, your addy only resides in most folk's kill-file. I have really
tried hard to illustrate the difficulties you've made and continue to
make for yourself here for some time, though evidently to no avail. So,
now you write some weird shit who's only real purpose is to get me to
add yours to mine and even though most people would, I don't work like
that. Mark, I'm not trying to marginalize you, but to be painfully
honest, I don't give a rat's ass what you think, do, or write, as it
has absolutely no effect on me whatsoever, I was only trying to show
you the errors of your ways in discussing motorcycle racing with folks
who may not share your particular, if not somewhat, warped view of
things, that's all..

I hear a lot of shit about racing and the AMA in particular, both here
at home and of course, at the shop. I talk to distributers,
parts/factory reps, riders, racers and even a few folks who are deeply
involved in the actual business of racing too and you would not believe
some of the incredible stuff that's been offered up since the mass
firings and announced sale. It's almost like the Kennedy assassination,
or the 9-11 conspiracy thing, but when I hear a really outrageous one I
don't call people liars, fags, or fools, I listen, as it's all FUN for
me. (pay attention to this) *I get the feeling this isn't fun for you
and perhaps you should spend a little time considering that.*
You may also feel that maybe I talk down to you at times, but nothing
could be further from reality. Sure, I don't understand some of what
you say and I'm convinced you go out of your way to make a lot of
things much more complex than they actually are and even though I don't
see it as such, I have come to understand that's what you do and I
accept it. So, if you feel the need to continue with your name calling
have at it, if not, that's cool too, in reality all you're doing is
isolating yourself further..


Whew!! (BTW, I only bothered responding because I'm sorta' stranded, my
GF's got my car and it raining like hell here today. That said, it's
actually better than yesterday when I spent 5 hours in a down home
Nascar-like raw bar waiting for my sister to finish a deposition at the
court house. Kinda' ironic story there too and it sorta' ties in with
the personalities thing. They had all these pictures of drivers and I
mean a lot of 'um, but not one of any 'Merkan M/C driver, though over
in a corner was a #46 and an old pic of Rossi, go figure..)


Now, if you choose to proceed, cool, if not, oh well..

The why question was obvious, someone will buy it only if they think
some money can be made, but don't forget, there's also the economy hook
looming, which could easily make this a "why not" question as well..

The who and how, or the direction it may take breaks down for me like
this and by the way, it sorta', kinda' may fit in your "not too big, or
not too small" thing. If someone like Hardcard ends up with it I'd
imagine it would most likely be same, same and more, or less just new
old guys running the show. However, if Grand AM, Live Nation, or some
other unknown big outfit ends up calling the shots I'd expect
significant changes, though I'd imagine they'd be a year, or more
before complete. To me the wild card in all this is not so much the
OEM's and what they may, or may not like, or do, it's the economy.
Because if it's like a bunch of folks are now claiming, a china
syndrome in progress, then most likely all bets are off and Dingman's
"vision" could be toasted just like the race trailer. If Dorna, or
Flamini grab the reigns, who fukin' knows?? After those, I get dizzy
thinking about it...

 

This is perfect.

Not the labels, but relative to the discussion about growing the sport. For
all the head-scratching and finger-pointing, this is why motorcycle racing,
despite it's considerable financial resources, is and will continue to be a
niche sport in the USA. IIRC, Mark has felt frustrated at the lack of
[meaningful] participation in the newsgroup and has felt that he needs to
provide stimulus to help the NG survive and thrive. But it doesn't thrive.
It is not flourishing. Certainly (hopefully?) there are more lurkers than
posters on this, which is probably one of the closest things to an American
road racing NG. Yet even including the sporadic contributors, the posters
appear to total in the low dozens, an number which hasn't shown much change
that I've seen. If this NG is indicative of trying to increase the live gate
and nurture the sport sufficiently into the mainstream where the sport is
truly presented for the masses to enjoy, it is astoundingly inept.

P.S. Don't take it personally. Almost every niche sport behaves in a similar
manner.

 

Feels to me like it's Usenet that's dead (as a forum for discussion),
not just this newsgroup. There are a few places where people talk about
M/C racing obsessively and with rather less rancour. Maybe it's finally
time to move. It's a shame, because I prefer the email/usenet
environment to web forums.

Anyone got a favourite? This one's not bad.
http://www.pbmagforum.com/forum34/

 

I like Usenet better too and will particularly miss the European slant
on things if we do decide to move on, but when an individual who
doesn't understand, or care about the difference between discussion and
debate tries to dominate most every thread with his particular view it
not only gets old and divisive, but paralyzes, or stunts the group
itself. Correct me of I'm wrong, but wasn't the driving idea behind
newsgroups a free flow of ideas and discussion? If so, RMR is in
trouble, because I haven't seen much of that around here in a while...

 

If, in your warped world, YOU think calling me names does anything to
make you look better you're sadly mistaken. (again) All it does is draw
attention to your "issues" and while there's little doubt they need
some attention, I don't believe you're going to find it here. Even if
your so-called event happened two months ago I probably couldn't recall
it, much less two years ago and even if I had the time, I wouldn't
spend any of it defending something as ludicrous and lame as what only
you think you dredged up. A liar huh? Dude, I've been called worse a
lot more accurately, from much, much better and saner people..

Double Wow! Mark those were very close to your actual words, you've
slighted, or outright slammed every regular in this group at one time,
or another when they wouldn't accept your version of things. Let's
review, Kvetching, Sundsquirt, anti-american Bond, chump Champ, but it
doesn't stop there. Oh hell no, Rossifag, Eurofag, crackerfag, Sp*c and
my all time fav, the Hayden death story and unlike you, those few I
remembered off the top of my head and without any help from Google! Me
marginalize you? You need absolutely no help in that endeavor
whatsoever! Like Carl said, you bring your own whip..

Again, any damage, or destruction is the self-inflected kind..

Ask yourself this question, who's horizon have you broadened?

Heh, evidently the button I pushed had a W on it! Bottom line here
Mark, you're beyond just being a jerk, or anal, it's more in line with
obsessive compulsive, or perhaps, something darker. I don't know if you
actually ever interact with real live people, but if you do, for sure,
I feel sorry for them...

{12:29p, 14 more minutes wasted}

 

One sentence in Noyes' latest piece caught my eye. It's the point where
the Jordan team are explaining that they can't get factory parts.

"But without the availability to the ‘factory’ electronics packages
and expertise"

So the key problem for them is a traction control, engine management
package.

And then I think back to Ten Kate and their championship winning package
in WSB. They used a 3rd party ECU, switched to HRC, then switched to a
3rd party again because the HRC package wasn't good enough for them.
Traction control packages are available from PI, Motec and Magnetti
Marelli at least and these all now have a lot of experience built up in
BSB and WSB. Is the Suzuki factory team's package the only way to be
competitive with the Yoshimura team?

 

I think their point was, you gladly sell us everything else, why not TC
too kind of thing and given the money they do and continue to spend, I
sorta' see their point. Evidently Suz did too, as from what I've heard
they have it now..

Btw, Noyes's last one pretty well laid out the differences(which really
aren't that great) between BSB and us...

 

The newest generation of forum software (at least phpBB) allows
viewing a discussion in a threaded mode. I know BARF uses it
already. Not sure if others are catching on. If there's sufficient
interest, I'd be happy to write some software that would run as a
standalone client and let you view and post to phpBB-run forums with
the ability to turn various features (like avatars) on and off.