One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem"

Mark N's argument subtly changes:

1. GP 125 has a weight rule so bigger guys are not at a disadvantage,
weight-wise.

2. 250s have 110 HP these days. Certainly traction limited under
acceleration out of most corners and thus there is an advantage to
having slightly bigger guys (there). Are bigger guys overall at
a disadvantage on 250's? Don't know but unless the fairing
is too small for them, probably barely at worst.

3. If the weight argument is now about how to develop riders for
MotoGP without disadvantaging bigger guys, putting weight on
MotoGP's midgets won't help that.

I like the 450 single idea. Make the rule so no homologation
is required but neither do they have to be non-production
based and let's see what we get. I bet a bunch of prodie
based cases to start with, moving rapidly towards prototype.

And keep the 125 two smokes for the kids, with weight limits.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

450 MiniMonos turn about the same lap times as 125GP. So they would make
a good entry level class. Just one problem though, tuned 450 MX motors
without some changes in technology probably wouldn't survive the Mugello
straight.

Run them side by side with 450 Minimonos with suitable weight breaks to
make the 4 strokes just slightly faster. The Metrakits/KTMs/Aprilias are
cheap and fast but they're going to have to go.

It's the middle class to replace 250GP which is tough. 110->140hp means
600-4s (675-3s, 750-2s) or prototype 400/500-2s. None of that is cheap.
Or the likely factories don't actually have anything right now. Or it
interferes with deals already done with WSS.

Somebody round here will say that the above doesn't show enough out of
the box thinking. Perhaps she'd like to suggest an alternative. I know.
Let's have Superstock 1000s as the support class to MotoGP.

 

Agreed. Just came across this article (includes video) on the Roland
Sands' motocross-derived 450 prototypes:
http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=479

 

Julian Bond says:

You're talking production engines. I'm not though I wouldn't
prevent anybody from starting with a production engine.

Just looking at MX, the 125 two smokes got smoked
by 250 four strokes. The 250 two strokes got blasted
by 450's. All proddy stuff sure but I'm betting a team
like Aprilia could make a prototype-ish, fast, 450 fairly
quickly.

That might be tough though.

Glad it's Dorna/IRTA/FIM's problem, not mine.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

How so?

No, unless the guys you're talking about weigh 45 and 50 kg (and 50kg
is only 110 pounds). In the real world Hayden racing Pedrosa on 125s
would mean Dani has a 40-pound weight advantage, just like in MotoGP -
over about 50kg it's all added weight to the combined package. This
assumes today's 125s are built down to the old 80kg minimum (176
pounds), and without facts I doubt that we can assume they're lighter
than that.

advantage on 250s. If that's true, then it would be even more true on
MotoGP machines, which are even more traction-limited. But I really
don't see Pedrosa and Stoner suffering in that regard. If there is a
slight advantage to heavier riders right out of a corner, then it's
heavily offset everywhere else on a lap.

Are bigger guys overall at

Aerodynamics, corner grip, tire compound, top-end acceleration, even
braking, it all favors the little guys. If they are not advantaged,
tell us why all the top guys in the class in terms of results are
under 130 pounds.

No, it probably wouldn't that much, unless they don't do anything
about 250 and 125. If not, then it would act as something of an
inhibitor for teams to hire smaller guys in MotoGP. But if they put
real-world rider minimums in 125 and 250 (riders without gear at 65kg
or more), then it would matter less. That doesn't mean I don't think
they should have one anyway; I think it would be a good thing to
establish a reasonable rider minimum for all classes.

That's one possibility, although I'd prefer something like 500cc twins
replacing 125s. I really don't see any need for prototype motors in
the support classes, unless there just isn't anything on a production
basis that would work.

 

I don't see why street-based motors would be expensive. Perhaps more
expensive than a production 250 twin, but hardly expensive in terms of
the form of racing we're talking about, which is world championship GP
racing. They are motors that have been modified to various degrees
already and have proven fully raceworthy on these sorts of tracks. So
the only question is how far to go with allowable mods. Doing what you
suggest, 600-4s to 750-2s, means there are various existing options
available for racing (at least seven OEMs), and it's not clear that
any one would be superior. So the factories would have a stake in the
racing, and would likely support it. But it wouldn't be terribly
expensive for them, as much of the work has already been done
elsewhere, and a non-factory team would likely be able to be quite
competitive without a lot of factory involvement.

At the end of the day the motor is just a lump of metal that is out of
sight. But it is the toughest part of the package to get right on a
budget, as Team Roberts has shown. So production-based motors take
care of the availability problem, and most of the cost. Chassis are
easier to deal with, and with non-production chassis and bodywork,
these things would look nothing like the production machines, except
to the extent that they all look kinda the same anyway, and to the
extent a factory team would want the bike to look like its street
source.

To the extent that 250 is intended to develop MotoGP riders, this
seems about perfect. Because of the motors, the resulting bikes would
both be rather large and heavy relative to 250s, and about the same
size as MotoGP machines. So better as a filter for riders trying to
make the big time. And I doubt that sourcing street motors would
create a huge issue with WSB/WSS, as the machines would be very
different, and the motors could be (either fewer or more allowable
mods). Probably someone would just need to cut the Phlegminis a check,
and they historically have been susceptible to a payoff...

Again, you have based the classes rather heavily on the existing class
power outputs, that's you starting point. And once again you choose to
take the snide approach, all the while hiding behind your screen. Time
to man up, Julian, and leave the "pussy" approach behind...

 

You're right of course. And there are plenty of people making 450 MX
engines. Perhaps Husquarna or BMW (same thing?) could run a team. And
how about Ducati? They have plenty of experience of big pistons.
Actually look at the list of companies that have made 450-550 singles or
1000 V-Twins and it's huge. Perhaps Ducati could dust off the supermono,
cut the stroke a bit and fit a 999 head to it.

Look at it like that and 450cc might be a bit too much.

There are supermono and minimono championships in the USA, as well as
125GP. Perhaps the AMA should give them support by adding a race to the
national championship weekend.

 

"As this bike was built to inspire a class of Thumper roadracers, the
converted ’crosser’s displacement, frame, swingarm, ignition and
gearbox are kept stock to keep the racing close."

MX frame, swingarm? I've never heard of anyone doing this in Minimono.
It's usually a converted 125 frame or a special frame from someone like
Tigcraft. I'm not sure what the point is about this particular bike
since people have already been doing this stuff in established classes
for the last couple of years.

When minimono was first introduced, people used the 250GP sized wheels
and fairing and just downsized the engine. But it quickly became obvious
that it was much better to downsize everything and fitting 125GP sized
wheels knocked seconds off laptimes. Which is another reason for going
down this route. A minimono based replacement could use all the
suspension, brake, wheel, tyre technology that 125GP has now.

 

Julian Bond notes:

I went back and looked at a recent Cycle Spew article on riding
Bayliss's 2007 999. It claims 193 HP. This is from a near GP level
engine, minus only a little technology.

So half of it making 100 HP might not be so unreasonable if
the rules allow going for it as they should.

I vote 500 singles to replace 250 2strokes. We can call it the
Manx Cup.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

Rossi started with karting, but very early on switched to minibike
racing, where he started to succeed. From there on, it wasn't a big
jump onto a 125 as he was growing up and getting better. So it
actually shows how the lightweight-middleweight-heavyweight formula
can work in rider development.

A 15 or 16 year old could easily fit that physical criterion of being
small and fit. To me, that's the point of having 125's or whatever
they might get replaced with in the context of GP's. It makes for a
good stepping stone into the series for young talent coming from all
over the world, provided there are similar machines being raced all
over the world. If we go to 450 4-stroke singles, that may very well
take off in places, where 125 racing is stagnant or dying now, such as
the US. As to the question of cost, a used 125 RS or TZ is on par
with cost with a used 250 4-stroke dirtbike. What we need here is
more tracks and more accessible parts (4-strokes would certainly fit
the bill).

I don't worship anyone. If you disagree with my point without giving
a reason why, that's fine.

I'm not saying it's terrible in and of itself. It's just that right
now it's a choice that may have future implications on where her
career can go. Those implications wouldn't be there and it would be
less of a career path issue if AMA had lightweight racing classes that
were compatible with something on the international scene.

My point is that modern production 600's can be very fast and also
very expensive in some respects, especially if raced under something
like the AMA FX spec. If 600's were used as a replacement for 250's,
I feel like they'd get too close to the big bikes and too far from the
little bikes, both in terms of cost and performance. I do like the 3-
class structure, but I'm getting the feeling you don't. Maybe that's
what we should be discussing.

The interest in small bikes in this country is changing for the
better. I think the success of SV650's, motard bikes, and Kawasaki's
brand new Ninja 650 and revamp of Ninja 250 are all evidence of that.

It's already being attempted by Red Bull. Let's wait and see if spec
racing works out. I don't think it's a terrible idea.

Sure, let's go with your last sentence. You're speculating.

Because you're starting with an assumption, do a big circle of
arguments, and come back to prove the assumption. That's speculation,
which, while entertaining, is not solid reason unless you can disprove
other ways of looking at the situation. Simply coming up with one
hypothesis that fits the reality in one way doesn't make it logical
proof that it is so.

Care to site your sources on the details of the SCRAMP deal?

So what are your Dorna internal contacts? Or are you saying your
powers of intuition are vastly superior to mine just because?

Once again, you're using your original assumption to prove itself.

Do you know that Dorna helped Aprilia hire Edwards? Or are you still
speculating?

I would certainly say he's demonstrated an ability to adapt to
different ways of riding. Is that something you're going to dispute
or just laugh it off and get back to the same tired soapbox?

Then saying Hayden is a "superior" rider is also impossible to say.

Whatever the formula, I do agree that a healthy mix of 2- and 4-
strokes would breathe new life into it.

Good for you.

That's a subjective statement. Too much for what? What is your ideal
vision of the series?

Well, then why not make it so 250 lb guys would be competitive as
well? And the 100 lb guys too. And the guys with poor vision. And
the guys with asthma. And so on. Why not just make it a video game?
I don't care if they look "normal" or not. Personally, I can see
normal looking guys and girls racing with me at a club level. It's a
great show, but why does that have to apply to a series that's
supposed to combine the greatest attributes of the whole package?
Note, that I'm not saying that MotoGP absolutely has to have the
greatest riders in the world. I don't think it's possible to quantify
that anyway. One rider may fit one bike better than another. Does
that mean that he or she gets better or worse when switching those
bikes? Or series. Or styles of riding. You get the picture. What
do you define as skill? There are guys at the Isle of Mann that are
faster than others because others don't have the balls to push it as
far. There are similar elements in any racing discipline. Is having
pure aggression part of the skill?

Your argument that size makes it more European and is the sole reason
for existing as a byproduct of a rule doesn't make sense. Are you
saying Americans are fatter than Europeans? If so, tough cookie if
this country can't produce riders that are small enough, while Europe
can. Because we're not that different racially. If anything, that
rule would be making the series more Asian, but it's not as of yet.
That's my point -- you're seeing every single aspect of the series
through the same conspiracy theory pryzm.

 

I don't understand what your point is. Puig is training kids on
125's. Some of them go on to have careers in the series. Okay. What
about any of this makes it unfair?

 

All that, just to say, "I don't like it."

 

600's are not lightweight. They're middleweight. And to get
something out of racing them, you really can't be younger than around
15. 125's are not a European monopoly. Open any issue of RRW and
look at their young racers' profiles. Look at what the kids between
10 and 15 are racing. They're mostly in USGRPU on 125's or are on
SV650's. Around 15 is when they start trying 600's. That's totally
reasonable and if we had a better path of progression for such riders
into small teams, it would undoubtedly improve their chances of
getting into GP's. But that's not the only issue.

Difference in tracks is another problem. Over-here, our tracks are
largely slower, narrow, and bumpy, particularly if you're not on the
West Coast. I've raced on both coasts in lightweight as well as
middleweight classes and I can tell you that racing something like a
600 at Loudon makes you feel claustrophobic. It's not at all the same
kind of racing one can experience on a smooth and fast track. Until
that's addressed, our top riders will not be such good candidates for
an international series that only spends a fraction of its season on
tracks similar to what we have here. And it's not going to get better
for them, because all the new facilities being built in Asia and the
Middle East are "first rate", meaning they're fast, wide, and smooth.

 

I think if it's possible to make it work, that would be ideal. The
problem is you can't just go by laptimes. When I practiced on a 600
in sessions with motard bikes mixed in, it was often very difficult to
overtake them on the brakes. They forced you to ride in a way that
was different than how you'd ride in a more homogeneous field in an
actual race. 250 2-strokes and ~600 4-strokes would likely excel at
different parts of the track. And advantage would be difficult to
predict as they go from track to track. On the surface, it may sound
like a great show, but it can very easily degenerate into initial grid
position being a huge deciding factor and then a game of certain bikes
holding other bikes up through certain sections and walking away from
them as soon as they got to "their" section. This wouldn't be
interesting to watch. But if it's possible to make them match up
enough in characteristics, it would indeed be good.

 

Mark, last year Hayden won. This year, it's Stoner. You're
complaining about European domination of the series through size. You
think it should all be fair and politics not interfere with how riders
get hired? Please. It will never happen. It's never been that way
to begin with. Last I checked, it takes money and dedication from
your parents to get a kid into racing early on. So that means all the
kids in big cities are cut off. All the kids that aren't in solid
middle-class families are cut off. What do you expect? It's not
chess. It's not basketball. This sport takes significant resources.
You'll never see "the best" meeting "the best". You'll only see "the
best of the lucky". Saying they shouldn't be too small to allow other
people into the game is not really gonna make it any more fair by
ballasting small riders with heavier machines will not work. You'd
have to have a choice of small machines and big ones. But then you're
getting into the situation I described about mixing bikes with similar
laptimes but different strengths and weaknesses on the same lap.
Might not be good watching. So the answer I think is to have
different career paths for riders of different stature.

 

Alexey notes:

I listened to an extended 'conversation' between race control
and a group of racers, half roadrace bikes, half motard bikes,
at the AHRMA roadrace at Mid-O. The conversation was
quite heated and revolved around the difference in riding
styles between the supposedly equally matched machines.
I thought one of the roadracer types was gonna punch
somebody. Especially at the esses after the back straight,
some of the motard guys were using their foot, spinning up
the back, and launching off the hill. Very fast and very
disconcerting if you were over on your knee and somebody
squared up under you barely leaned over.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

Mark N spews:

Then why would you advocate doing it? Of course it's
going to change the machine's character, that's why
you suggest doing it.

You need to face the facts - you're pissing in the wind.
Whine all you want, it won't change the rules.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

The thing that is still up in the air is MotoGP-2 and MotoGP-3 or
whatever the replacement for 250GP and 125GP turns out to be.

Imagine for a moment that World Supers can be sorted out and GP can run
a 600 production based formula. What we might have is something similar
to AMA FX but taken a little further.
- 600-4, 675-3, 750-2 production engines in a WSS/FX tune
- Prototype frames
- Unlimited suspension, wheels, brakes but steel disks
- Unlimited bodywork (eg no silhouette requirements)
- Unlimited gearing but with a maximum of 6 gears.
- And the big question. How much electronics, traction control, launch
control, wheelie control?

- All the Japanese, Ducati and Aprilia have suitable engines.
- In the timescales involved it's conceivable that KTM could have a
suitable engine and even BMW.
- Teams like Ten Kate, or Yamaha Italia and Germany could quite easily
get involved as they already have the engine knowledge.
- The advantage to the factories would be time and effort but not
necessarily technology. Meaning that a private team (like TenKate) with
a good engine tuner should be able to be competitive.
- Riders could be drawn from National 600 formulae as well as WSS.
They'd have to cope with radically more tuneable chassis and setup but
would be familiar with the basic feel.

There's a lot to be said for this. But it doesn't make it any easier to
work out what MotoGP-3 should be. These days there really are no road
engines of < 600cc that are directly suitable for racing. Nobody makes a
400-4 or a 500-2 sports bike any more. Even the MX motors are
questionable if you need a new crank and rod to survive and a new
gearbox possibly with extra gears to suit road racing.

 

I guess we'll just have to disagree. My point about 15 year olds is
that both guys and girls that age will not have a problem fitting the
small bike and being competitive on it without having to have abnormal
genes. I'm 5'9", 160 lbs -- perhaps only slightly below average North
American male size and I certainly was quite a bit lighter when I was
in my mid teens. While I'd love to try a 125 now, such a bike would
have been perfect for me and most kids I knew if they were to try
their hand at racing. Another problem I have with starting road
racing on bigger bikes is that it is particularly hard on women. I
believe once they're more mature as riders, they're not necessarily at
an great advantage or disadvantage, but early on, when they're still
teenagers, putting a girl on a 600 is a mistake. A light- to
middleweight 4-stroke, such as an SV or the Ninja, is sorta okay, but
those bikes don't have nearly the right chassis for someone who wants
to learn GP racing, which 125's and 250's most certainly teach.

 

First of all, NASCAR is going full speed towards becoming America's
next top model... I mean, a spec series -- and nobody minds. Then
look at A1GP, which is gaining popularity. As far as a spec class
replacing 125's, I don't think it would be that terrible, especially
considering the fact that 125's now are nearly that. Yes, there are
different manufacturers, but the technology is virtually the same,
tires are spec. And it produces a great show. It doesn't have to be
a pure spec class. It doesn't have to be like Red Bull GP, where they
go out of their way to show that the machines are identical.