Ooops

Discussion in 'UK Motorcycles' started by Paul Corfield, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. Paul Corfield

    des Guest

    Oh, dear. You couldn't make this stuff up...
     
    des, Feb 14, 2011
    #21
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  2. Paul Corfield

    M J Carley Guest

    Much as they might like to prop up the local dictator, they're a bit
    overstretched at the mo. They might just have to tolerate an outbreak
    of democracy. America's man in Egypt overthrown; France's in Tunisia
    fleeing the country; Yemen and Iran rising in solidarity. A grand year
    so far, except for the bigots who reckon Arabs can't do democracy.
     
    M J Carley, Feb 14, 2011
    #22
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  3. And with good reason. From the perspective of The Rest Of The World for
    the last 60 years, which is the entire lifetime of most of all those
    living in the rest of the world, about 10 times more bodies than live in
    the US, US foreign policy has been primarily about securing it's own oil
    supplies and it just so happens that the middle east has a lot of that.
    And then there is the Jewish problem.


    Law, what law? The army just suspended their constitution, except for
    the law of the gun there is no law in Egypt.

    Replace one hereditary dictator who held power by means of whatever
    influence he had over the armed forces with another hereditary system akin
    to dictatorship who will hold power by means of denying them 70 virgins
    each?

    Sounds about right for that part of the world.

    Those backed by The International Islamic Conspiracy are best equipped to
    fight and win a quick election. What little other opposition there is
    consists of rag bag disassembly of groups of dewy eyed intellectuals,
    powerless trades unions and various flavours of lunatics who have heard
    their very own version of the word of god and it is going to be some time
    before they reach any sort of concensus about who should replace their
    much loved friendly dictator.

    Sadly, for the people of Egypt, the freedoms they believe the future holds
    for them are almost certainly not what they will get.
     
    steve auvache, Feb 14, 2011
    #23
  4. Paul Corfield

    Hog Guest

    I'm not sure how the word Bigot applies TBH.

    I think the general American population would be only *TOO* happy if the
    Fed Govmint was to can every last cent of the foreign aid and support
    given to Arab countries including Egypt and close all the US military
    bases in that part of the world. To include the significant sums given
    to the Palestinians. That would be a vote winner.

    Post Cold War (1) the whole Oil Security argument never justified the
    mind boggling amounts of money the Yanks have spent over there. The
    Arabs can't afford to ignore the Americans as a customer and other
    places in the world supply oil.

    I'm not including subsidies and aid to Israel in any of those arguments.

    (1) yeah obviously the USSR presented different threats
     
    Hog, Feb 14, 2011
    #24
  5. Paul Corfield

    M J Carley Guest

    When has it not interfered?
    Omar Suleiman is America's man in Cairo.
    `Calming influence' in the sense of `dictator making sure the
    Palestinians were effectively blockaded'?
    The question is not whether he wanted Mubarak to stay in power, but
    whether he wanted a change in the system of government. He seems, for
    now, to have got what he wanted: military control and no risk of
    democracy.

    On the other hand, the army is now having to deal with mass strikes.
     
    M J Carley, Feb 14, 2011
    #25
  6. Paul Corfield

    Hog Guest

    You mean it's a pity we didn't wait until the Camps had finished the
    work in hand?
     
    Hog, Feb 14, 2011
    #26
  7. Paul Corfield

    M J Carley Guest

    Because the view that `Arabs can't do democracy' is racist.
    $500 million per year is hardly significant, especially since more
    than half is direct support to the government, largely for `law
    enforcement'.
    No more than the US did.
     
    M J Carley, Feb 14, 2011
    #27
  8. Paul Corfield

    des Guest

    _Who_ ??
     
    des, Feb 14, 2011
    #28
  9. Paul Corfield

    Hog Guest

    Far be it for me to suggest military rule but clearly there has to be a
    period of enforced security, law and order in which an organised
    transition to a

    new constitution,
    bill of rights,
    elections,
    parliament,
    judicial system and
    police service

    can be undertaken.

    See when you list it out the size of the task is pretty daunting. It
    can't happen in an atmosphere of anarchy or sectarian violence or
    foreign interference. Sheesh if Iraq is the perfect local example of
    how bad it could be...

    See how bad the standards of UK foreign reporting have become that there
    hasn't been a strong thread of reflection on the Turkish system. It
    appears to me that Egypt needs to have an Ataturk moment. The evolution
    of a secular state in all the things I listed.

    It should keep the Army happy too, in its form and in their new role as
    protectors of the constitution, as in Turkey.

    I expect that Egypt may have its own internal "demographics" that may
    require a complex weighted proportional representation type of voting.
     
    Hog, Feb 14, 2011
    #29
  10. Paul Corfield

    Hog Guest

    as I said....
    500 mill? The entire Arab region. I expect the US spends more than a
    few billion across the region every year.

    Threats TO the USA. And the most of us.

    Shirly you never though Communism was A Good Thing.
     
    Hog, Feb 14, 2011
    #30
  11. Paul Corfield

    ginge Guest

    There is of course a contrary argument that in essence the majority of
    people are capable of self governing, and even without the frameworks
    listed above many things will work perfectly.
     
    ginge, Feb 14, 2011
    #31
  12. Paul Corfield

    des Guest

    fact.
    --
    des
    'Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual
    ignorance'
    (H.L. Mencken)
    <http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
     
    des, Feb 14, 2011
    #32
  13. Paul Corfield

    Thomas Guest

    Oh, I dunno, the last election in England, perhaps? Or was that
    rigged, by the US too? But really, what nation has NOT tried to
    influence whatever it can, wherever it can, when it sees fit?
    For today, mebbe, but they will deal with whomever is in power. FWIW,
    El Baradei has plenty of support.
    As in the current peace treaty with Israel.
    Considering what happened to Allende in Chile, you have a point, but
    I'm optimistic. We'll see how long it lasts. I'm betting on elections
    in 6 months.
     
    Thomas, Feb 14, 2011
    #33
  14. "Question"?

    Needs a final solution?
     
    The Older Gentleman, Feb 14, 2011
    #34
  15. Paul Corfield

    Hog Guest

    Well in my libertarian self I'd like to agree. A peaceful transition to
    an income tax free liberal utopia would be a wonder to behold. However,
    in a population traumatised by 30 years of dictatorship, living close to
    the font of radical islam, I think it might be a stretch.

    As I said, I the lessons of Iraq shouldn't be ignored.

    Maybe Egypt doesn't have any ethnic stress lines, but it seems kinda
    unlikely?

    Reading some of the state controlled Iranian media is pretty disturbing
    but hey, who knows, people there might have the coconuts to sit out
    en-masse.

    <thinks>

    Then again the Revolutionary Guards might make Tiananmen square look
    like a birthday party.
     
    Hog, Feb 14, 2011
    #35
  16. Paul Corfield

    Thomas Guest

    I dunno. The country is fairly evenly split between left and right.
    The isolationist right wing has the louder voice, but there are many
    who disagree.
    Jordan alone gets ~$500 mill/year, West Bank/Gaza about the same.
    Egypt ~$1.5B, Israel ~$3.2B. About 1/3 of all US foreign aid goes to
    Israel & Egypt.
    One current view:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/feb/14/us-foreign-aid-cuts
     
    Thomas, Feb 14, 2011
    #36
  17. Paul Corfield

    Hog Guest

    Aye but cutting overseas expenditure is pretty cross party.

    But of course the sensible 1st step in resolving your financial crisis
    would be cutting military expenditure by 10% per annum for 5 years running.
     
    Hog, Feb 14, 2011
    #37
  18. Paul Corfield

    des Guest

    You virtually did.

    --
    des
    'In reality, the state is nothing but a machine for the oppression of
    one class by another, and indeed in the democratic republic no less
    than in the monarchy'
    (Friedrich Engels (1820 - 1895))
    <http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
     
    des, Feb 15, 2011
    #38
  19. Paul Corfield

    Thomas Guest

    People make claims about how to fix the national budget, but actually
    getting the numbers right is extremely difficult. (Duh, or it would be
    done already.)
    The New York Times lets you try:
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic..html

    Dunno if there's anything similar for the UK.
     
    Thomas, Feb 15, 2011
    #39
  20. P J O'Rourke showed how it could be done in one of his recent books.
    Mind you, he was not being entirely serious....
     
    The Older Gentleman, Feb 15, 2011
    #40
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