OT : Boilers

what boiler is it?

type "sedbuk" into google, you should find the efficiency of your boiler

boiler quality ain't what it used to be.

If you think its going to cost you a couple of thousand to get it
changed and then allow for another couple of hundred after a couple of
years when the pcb dies on you

parts are **** off expensive for most condensing boilers

You have also chosen the wrong time of year to think about changing your
boiler, fitters can quote what they like because they are so busy -
better to wait until it gets warmer

Are you getting confused between combi and condensing ?

A combi heats both hot water and central heating - good for a small
house, for yours I would expect a 28-35kW boiler to be adequate. What is
important is the flow rate for hot water especially for a shower

A common problem is that if someone flushes a toilet when someone else
is having a shower, you can get a reduction in flow rate and even with a
modulating gas valve, a change in water temperature

Legally, (more or less) you HAVE to install a condensing boiler you have
little choice

cheapest to run is a bit of a non question, boiler efficiencies have to
be high, tanks are lagged - not much leeway

whatever Nigel says

DO NOT GO NEAR BRITISH GAS

I'll repeat

DO NOT GO NEAR BRITISH GAS

As for how much to ask a plumber to do - so you understand CH electrics
? If not go to the uk.d-i-y FAQs which you can access via my website

www.uk-diy.org

which will redirect you

Where are you ?

I might be able to find a sympathetic fitter

but, as I said earlier, this is the wrong time of year to be embarking
on such a project

BTW - did I mention

DO NOT GO NEAR BRITISH GAS

 

doesn't matter - unless you qualify for a non-condensing boiler, it's
illegal to fit otherwise

Fan bearing quality has **** all to do with the price of the boiler

Now - this is typical of British Gas

Fan bearings are lubricated with grease. Spraying them with WD40 or
similar will give temporary reprieve in an emergency, but is not a
solution. Once the bearings have gone, they are gone

The manufacturers use shielded bearings, when I recondition them, I use
sealed bearings, which are more expensive, but are more reliable and
last longer

So you have effectively paid for a new boiler and (whatever the
installation problem they contractually had to address) all they did was
came and sprayed a bit of WD40 at your fan bearings.

In general, being happy with something you have never tested is a false
happiness - so sayeth confucious or someone

There are much better deals around. Ask your local authority who they
use for their social housing

 

and how much over the odds did you pay for a BG installation ?

Or didn't you get other quotes

And what have they actually had to do ?

Normally you are not someone who I would say STFU to, but in this case
....

It's a bit like recommending and accountant or insurance company you
haven't claimed from

 

Cheap end - Worcester

more expensive Vaillant / Viesmann / various others

Avoid Potterton / Baxi

Don't go for less known manufacturers like Saunier Duval, Biasi,
Ravenheat etc that might sound cheap but you might find difficult to get
parts for in a hurry

Ask in the uk.d-i-y newsgroup, there are some impartial and
knowledgeable people in there. Take anything that Doctor Drivel says
with a sack or two of salt - he's our pet troll, and fairly harmless as
long as he takes his medication

 

I would hate to be the one who says "told you so" in a couple of years

BG - don't go near them JFGI the number of people who have been ripped
of by / had problems with them.
Have you never watched watchdog or any other consumer program ?

they are bad news

You have little choice - pressurised system with a condensing boiler

 

Just as well I got my new one when I did then. As a matter of interest
how do you qualify for a non-condensing boiler ?

So using cheap suppliers is never an indicator of overall price on any
manufactured item that uses some bought in components, or are boilers
special?

I was given the option of a possible instant fix, or them coming back
with a new fan. The quick fix involved some lubricant, not sure what it
was, but the fan is still functioning quietly after several weeks. They
came out within a few hours of phoning as has been generally my
experience of their service. It's due for an annual service before too
long and they have agreed that the fan will be replaced then if it
doesn't start getting noisy again before then. I've dealt with one or
two noise problems involving fans so I'm not totally unfamiliar with how
they behave when bearings are fubar.

The installation problem was interesting. Agreed the flooring should
have been spotted by the estimator. I hadn't paid for a new hot water
cylinder.

The boiler has been in for four years, and as I said up there it will be
replaced free when convenient to me.

They had the contract for the old boiler before and their service has
been tested by me on more than one occasion.

Define better. I suppose you mean cheaper. I work for a Local Authority,
I suspect the deals they get are cheap because of negotiating a very
large contract.

Frag asked for some feedback on British Gas. I gave it. He can now
interpret it as good as bad in the light of your comments.

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Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, geoff

Of course I got other quotes. One was suspiciously cheap, the others
were within a few hundred of the BG one. None of them threw in new
radiators throughout.

I've had them service the whole system for some years now. I used to
have an independent guy who did it, but he landed a big contract with a
builder and lost interest. Oddly, he wrote to me recently saying that he
hadn't heard from me for a while...

The BG guys fixed the old system a couple of times. Once when the
immersion heater went they came out the same day. They said they'd be
back the next day as they didn't have the right size heater on board,
but I pointed out that (at the time) we didn't have a separate circuit
for the water heating, so the immersion was our only choice if the
heating was off (it was summer). The guy went to Plumb Centre, got a
heater, and fitted it the same day rather than see us without hot water.

On another occasion the outlet from the hot water cylinder had chalked
up. They diagnosed and fixed it (even though it strictly wasn't covered
by the contract, chalking up isn't). No extra charge (but a drink for
the bloke).

Another time the shut-off valve on the water tank in the loft got noisy.
I called them, they came out next day and replaced it. All part of the
service.

They have *never* failed to show up when they said they would, they have
*never* not been on-site, with parts, by the next day when I've needed
them.

As you can see, I have. That's why I recommend them. When I was
travelling a lot on business I needed cover that meant that Mrs WUN
could pick the phone up and get a problem sorted. Plumbing, electrical,
drains, whatever.

That's what I pay for. That's what I get.

 

'geoff' wrote...>

Potterton Prima 50F - those of the infamous dying PCB - hence its been
fixed a couple of times by me.

Simple failure - first was a dry joint, second was the same but on a
high power lead/socket pin, arcing takes out the surrounding solder and
a chunk of the PCB - half an hour with a soldering iron and some nice
thick patching wire and it was up and working again.

Hence why I'm finding out the good from the bad so I can avoid this.

True, I might do that.

The showers got a very good thermostatic control which will deal with
that for me.

<snip>

Saying that without any URLs to proof or anything else holds about as
much sway as anything Bore says, i.e. none.

 

**** me -

Lets do some sums

decent gas boiler £700 - 800 (oil, somewhat more expensive)

cost to BG with their buying power £500-600

Lets be generous and say £400 for Rads, pipework and other bits - £1000

Lets say 2 man days at £250 / day

That comes to about £2000 in total

which sounds about the top end of what most fitters would charge to
install a system

So having taken on a new install, they then sell you insurance cover at
£120 / year on a system which they can be reasonably confident that it's
unlikely to go wrong for three years, and can claim back on any failures
for the first year anyway

the money you could have saved would have easily paid for a new boiler.

most problems (like replacing fans and pcbs) are fairly simple to fix

hardly rocket science for rufty tufty bikers who can tie their own
shoelaces

 

there is some kind of points system , you can prolly find it on the
internet, which has to be filled out and signed by a competent person

Not something I've been through

That's not what I said

What I am saying is that the bearings used by the fan motor
manufacturers are no better on expensive boilers (e.g. vaillant) than on
a cheap (e.g. Biasi) one

Usually NMB 626ZZ

So why have you had several problems ?

Rather than define "better", I would prefer to cite the number of times
they have been on Watchdog, the number of times someone comes into
uk.d-i-y with a complaint and what I hear from the industry as a whole

 

Well, the only time I've used them as a "consumer" was when my business
partner rang me from the states - could I sort out the problem with his
CH

I couldn't even get through on the first day and then they showed up,
but not having part would be back in two days - they left his wife with
a fan heater

Your experience seems at odds with most other people who I've come
across

.... and their installation charges are prolly about 30-40% up on the
industry average

 

Ah, I'll have a look at "Guide to the Condensing Boiler Installation
Assessment Procedure for Dwellings" myself then. Forewarned is
forearmed.

All boiler makers use the same fan manufacturer then?

Where did I say I have had several problems with the new boiler? This
has been only the second. The first was a whistling noise from the
electrickery somewhere. Fixed easily within hours of reporting it.

The other tests of their service was on the old boiler. An ancient ideal
sectional jobby. No idea if they originally installed it, but they fixed
it a few times (igniter, thermocouple etc.)

How many customers have they got? See my reply to WUN.



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| Pete Fisher at Home: |
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| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" |
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At last - some one not wearing a "you saw me coming" T-shirt

 

look and then move on ...

a decent thread on that subject in uk.d-i-y recently

 

In message <>, Pete Fisher

just a bit more BG bashing ...

The PT5 will just be a rebadged programmer from a manufacturer

 

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, geoff

<shrug>

I really, honestly, couldn't give a **** who Frag buys his boiler from.
I'm just saying what my experience with BG has been.

Not in my case, but again, IDGAF.

 

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Pete Fisher

Oh, indeed.

And I couldn't care less, so long as the service remains good. When it
isn't, I'll stop dealing with them.

 

There are a number of manufacturers - Fime, Smiths etc

to take Smiths for example they buy motors from Micromotors [1] in
Merthyr Tydfall where I buy them from - motors are built in China

Fime are made in Italy, but they tend to go for the cheapest bearing
manufacturer that they can get away with - usually NMB

The bearings, with very few exceptions fit on a 6mm shaft and are
standard across the industry

[1] recently taken over by someone else

you said one or two noise problems involving fans

The problem is that people still see them as "The Gas Board" and trust
them

I'm saying that they are out for profit and not to be trusted - they are
overpriced and their service is no better than can be got more cheaply
elsewhere

Heed my warning or don't, it's a free world, it's just that my ear is
nearer to the ground than most people

 

why ?

there is so much inertia in a CH system, you would hardly notice

 

£30 from me ... with 12 months warranty

unfortunately, it takes a couple of years for problems to show up as
being a problem. For example, the Worcester 24i was hailed as being a
very reliable boiler - lots of LA authorities installed them

5 years down the line I see a LOT of 24i pcbs coming in with faults on
them