OT but timely: Proxy voting

What was illegal about that then? Uncle Saddam invaded his neighbour.
Stupidly the Yanks didn't go all the way there and then.

Come to think of it we could have kicked all the SN into touch and taken
back our oil.

 

It's quite simple: if you want to grow your way out of recession,
don't make it more expensive to employ people.

If only Mr Cameron had left becoming PM completely down to good
fortune, and the will of the people, like that nice Mr Brown.

How much of Gordon's soul is locked up Mandelson's crypt?

Quite right, too. Fucking NuLabour mouthpiece that it's become.

 

Gee I can retire.

 

Didn't they go outside what they were supposed to do by actually
invading Iraq and when they realised they might have been a bit
naughty they hurried back to Kuwait?

btw, everyone knows that Kuwait were drilling under Iraq and pinching
their oil but they were more willing to share it with the West than
Iraq were so it was ok.

 

Dunno, quite possibly. I doubt many people would complain if they did
though (apart from the Iraqis).

Now you're just being silly.

 

The original Gulf War I'd class as justified in defence of Kuwait, who
are and always have been an ally and a source of our oil. If you
recall, the Allies stopped short of carrying on into Baghdad and
overthrowing Saddam Hussein.

It wasn't an illegal war as Iraq invaded an ally of Britain and the US
and in doing so threatened the economic security of this country by
limiting oil supplies. I don't recall anyone moaning about illegal wars
at the time, in fact your the first person I've ever heard call it that.

Invading Iraq in GW2 was highly illegal because Blair knew there were
no WMDs, amongst other reasons.

 

I'm not complaining about them kicking Saddams arse (1) because the
bastard needed it but Lozzo seemed to think the Tories hadn't been
involved in an 'illegal' war but once they went beyond their mandate
to liberate Kuwait the war was just as illegal as Blair backing Bush
jr in his war.

I didn't see the Tories objecting to the illegal war at the time but
that's not really the point.

Honestly, they were drilling under the border and tapping into Iraqi
oilfields. When I was working in Kazakstan one of the American
drilling companies involved in pinching said oil was drilling on the
concession I worked on and a number of the drilling supervisors were
bragging about it and wearing t-shirts with slogans referring to said
oil theft.

I'd sooner we had the oil than Saddam held us to ransom so I don't
object to the way they acted but that war wasn't simply a matter of
liberating Kuwait and putting Saddam back in his place.

(1) Afghanistan is a different matter and British troops are dying
because a few towel heads went into the demolition business in NY and
the Yanks objected to it.

 

They went further than just liberating Kuwait and the only reason they
didn't overthrow Saddam was because they knew they'd be in big shit if
they did.

Kuwait isn't an ally of anyone, it's a manky little Gulf state with a
shit load of oil which we need. Go and do some research and you'll
find that a lot of that oil supply was being nicked from Iraq and if
someone was pinching our oil we'd start on them very bloody rapidly.

I suppose you think that the nuclear submarine currently skulking in
the South Atlantic is there to protect the Falklands rather than the
platform that's sitting there drilling holes in the ocean floor so we
can have the oil that's mysteriously appeared down there since the
Falklands scuffle took place.

He lied about the reasons but realistically the lunatic in charge of
Iraq had to go. It would have been better to have him voted out but
the truth of the matter is that it's easier to get away with invading
somewhere than it is to find excuses for backing terrorists if they'd
helped someone overthrow him.

I'm sure I've heard the words "it's easier to be asked to be forgiven
than it is to ask for permission" used on here before. It was illegal,
Blair was a ****, I'm not trying to deny either fact.

 

I don't recall anyone ever calling GW1 an illegal war until you
mentioned it tonight. It was justified by the UN without any objections
and finished when the objectives had been reached.

It may have been illegal in your eyes, but I think that's just to
satisfy your side of this argument.

 

It wasn't an attack, just an observation. You've made it very clear
over the years that the tories are evil incarnate as far as you're
concerned (e.g. your 'attacks' on Boris), & comments like 'carefully
unleashed exercise' & mentioning the Sun's switch whilst leaving out
their previous switch to Labour just enforce that view. So arguing
about it's as futile as arguing about religion or animal welfare.

 

Bollocks, they went as far as they needed to in order to stop the Iraqi
action and keep the Iraqi forces in retreat.

I'd suggest you do your homework and check out exactly who trained and
still trains Kuwaiti forces.

Heresay or do you have cast iron sources?

More Iraquis have died under the Allied occupation than died under
Saddam Hussein, it would have been better for Iraq if they'd left it
alone.

 

He doesn't have to: he only has to fail to increase it. Either way,
it's a spit into the ocean after Gordon's endless overspend these last
thirteen years.

The constant refrain is about cutting the "deficit", not the "debt"
i.e. reducing the amount the government is overspending every year,
never mind the total that is owed. Even with rates as low as they are,
and a compliant B of E facilitating every Gilt auction by buying any
old shit from invesment houses, the debt servicing cost more than the
education and defence budgets combined.

n.b. this applies to *all* of them, regardless whar colour tie they've
put on for their phot-op.

No, not *that* old argument. I don't recall Major waiting, urging,
spinning, briefing, conniving and pushing for Maggie to go throughout
her whole period as PM. I couldn't give a shit about "electing the PM"
bit.

It'd have been nice if NuLabour had the Balls (ha, ha) to have elected
their own fucking leader, rather than installing one because they were
all too shit scared of what the "great clunking fist" would do about
it if they tried. Look how long it took before the recent coup
plotters got "exposed" by a sting on the telly.

Murdoch's a busted flush - ffs, the man's 79 years old - and the vast
majority of his readership couldn't fill in voting slip if you gave
them three goes each.

From watching the telly, and reading their "news" website.

That's me, a council estate raised on benefits from a long line of
coal miners, glassworks labourers and farm workers Unite membership
card holding blue blood Tory.

The Labour movement in this country might have been "hoodwinked" by
Blair, they've no fucking excuse for foisting the psycopathic
monstrosity that currently occupying the highest office in the land
upon us. We ended up with GB because the PLP was scared of him, no
more, no less.

 

I really don't think it was. I doubt the mandate specified how far into
Iraq they could go, & Iraq was lobbing scuds at Saudi after retreating
so chasing them down was the only sensible thing to do.

If that's the case, it's hard to believe it didn't work both ways. But
either way, it was a sanctioned & justifiable war.

Aye, & many are dying due to lack of kit, which makes the government
directly responsible for their deaths.

 

I didn't say that the war was illegal, I said that going into Iraq
overstepped their UN mandate which made that part of it just as
illegal as the allegedly illegal second Gulf war. I don't actually
think that any war is 'legal' or 'illegal' and I'm not condemning the
government in power for either of those wars for their actions.

But....

I have frequently condemned the current Labour party for keeping
British troops in there longer than was needed even though I still
think Saddam Hussein had to go.

My side of the argument? I'm not bothered about who invades which
country as long as the country being invaded isn't one I live in, I
didn't give a flying **** when Iraq invaded Kuwait and I actually
think we'd have done the same if someone pinched our oil but Bush Sr
was heavily backed by American oil companies who had massive interests
in Kuwait so there was only ever going to be one outcome.

The legalities of the second Gulf war are also basically irrelevant
because the Western World needs Iraqi oil and Saddam Hussein was a
nutter who might have stopped that supply on a whim.

I don't hear anybody whinging about illegal wars when some wanked out
African country (with no oil) invades it's neighbours because it
happens often enough.

 

You need to go back and re-read exactly what you've been bleating on
about in your last three responses. I've left one of themn quoted above
for you, just in case you have trouble finding them.

With that in mind I've decided to ignore the rest of your response cos
you're obviously incapable of getting your facts straight tonight for
some reason.

 

I'd have been happy for them to kick him right out of the country but
that doesn't make it 'legal'.

Because we want them to have our babies or because they're paying a
lot of money for us to do it? Trading partners aren't always what I'd
call allies but you might think differently. The French are supposed
to be our allies but they supplied weapons to a country that at the
time was threatening Britain.

There are plenty of places on the internet that are basically
trustworthy and not politically affiliated that confirm it. Everybody
does it but not everybody gets caught, drilling into someone elses
concession has been going on since the mid '70s when the technique was
first developed. The drilling was simply an excuse for Iraq to invade
but it was actually a valid one if there is such a thing as an excuse
to invade someone elses territory.

That's a very liberal point of view for a Tory supporter.

 

Heh.

 

Selective snipping is always a good plan, keep it up.

The first part referred to the second Gulf war, the second part was
about the first Gulf war and was taken from a completely different
post.

The first war was not illegal *but* the UN mandate was to liberate
Kuwait, not to invade Iraq. If the second war was illegal because they
invaded Iraq what is the difference?

 

Your initial post where you challenged me over the actiuons of the
Major government stated that the first Gulf War was illegal - I can go
back and google it if you like; make your mind up, Andy, was it or
wasn't it, cos you've changed your mind a couple of times about it
tonight.

 

It really is making me think about voting Liberal rather than Labour
but I'll not be voting for the Tories because they were (imo) a lot
worse than Labour have been and I'm worried they'd do it again.