Out with the old, in with the not so old I suppose.

Discussion in 'UK Motorcycles' started by Brownz @ Work, Apr 10, 2008.

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  1. Brownz @ Work

    Cane Guest

    Cane, Apr 10, 2008
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  2. Brownz @ Work

    Ace Guest

    The most authoritative view I've heard on this was from Janice, who
    honestly didn't think that anything more could have been done, bar
    lining the entire route with ten-foot padded fencing. Did she give
    such an opinion at the inquest? Sounds like the Judge just wasn't
    listening to reason.

    Than again, having actually read his report, I see that his main issue
    is that the marshals, including Keith and Janice, were not aware that
    they should have been excluding the public from the area, so I can see
    he has a point. He took great pains to exclude them from any
    critisisms, which is entirely fair, so I suppose that the man at the
    top has to take ultimate responsibility.

    And at 72, he's probably taken the decision to resign in the hope that
    this will avoid others with more to lose having to do so.

    ..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
    \`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
    `\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
    Ace, Apr 11, 2008
  3. Brownz @ Work

    Ben Guest

    I've just read all of that report. Why do people who have raced there
    tend not to support those findings, and what do they think should have
    been done, if anything?
    Ben, Apr 11, 2008
  4. Brownz @ Work

    Ace Guest

    Well, not quite, but yes, he's saying that if the spectators weren't
    there they'd not have been hit.
    Seems fairly reasonable, I must say.
    But that's been the case for many years, as I learnt from reading the
    summation. The fact that they've got all these PAs is down to
    precisely that sort of thinking.
    I wouldn't disagree, but the argument's a bit misplaced in this
    context, given that the precedent has been established and practiced
    in its current form for over a decade. The issue of enforcement of PAs
    is the main thing he seems to be criticising here.
    Happy days, eh? Used to be like that on most race tracks when I wer'

    ..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
    \`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
    `\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
    Ace, Apr 11, 2008
  5. Brownz @ Work

    Ben Guest

    The report didn't suggest that to me. The coroner's main point seemed
    to be that if you're going to have a chain of responsibility, then it
    should work. And in this case it didn't and 2 people died who
    possibly wouldn't have.
    Ben, Apr 11, 2008
  6. I could be wrong here, but fwir of the accident...

    Umm... Not standing on the outside of a bend on the exit curve is pretty
    much a matter of common sense, but that's not so common any more.
    GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

    "A scone and tea at half past three
    Makes the day a little brighter
    Keep your cakes and fancy tarts
    And stick them up your shiter."
    Grimly Curmudgeon, Apr 11, 2008
  7. Brownz @ Work

    Pip Luscher Guest

    And locals?
    Pip Luscher, Apr 11, 2008
  8. Brownz @ Work

    Veggie Dave Guest

    Legally it wouldn't make any difference. If the organisers are negligent
    in their safety measures then their negligent. If they're not, then
    they're not.

    Veggie Dave
    IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com
    POST PRODUCTION http://www.iq18films.co.uk
    Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me
    Veggie Dave, Apr 11, 2008
  9. Brownz @ Work

    Andy Bonwick Guest

    That's irrelevant in this case because they weren't standing on the
    exit curve.
    Andy Bonwick, Apr 11, 2008
  10. Brownz @ Work

    ginge Guest

    It just requires a bit of lateral thinking... My vote is for internment
    camps in Peel.
    ginge, Apr 11, 2008
  11. Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Andy Bonwick

    I've marshalled in that location (as have others here). I've also seen
    people asked to move from clearly dodgy places there.

    To get hit where (AIUI) they were was just really shitty luck.
    Wicked Uncle Nigel, Apr 11, 2008
  12. Brownz @ Work

    ginge Guest

    Whilst this may sound selfish, I'm so glad I went home the day before,
    as I'd have otherwise been marshalling there.
    ginge, Apr 11, 2008
  13. Brownz @ Work

    Pip Luscher Guest

    Fair enough. It does seem that there were serious failures of
    organization (is 'systemic' a good word to use here?). Quite possibly
    two lives would have been spared if the failures hadn't happened.

    I think generally the Coroner seemed to be fair but he did seem to
    think that spectators need to be wrapped in cotton wool - surely,
    provided they are made aware of the risks, so as to make informed
    choices, they shouldn't be barred from getting close the action except
    in the above exceptional areas. As to his comments regarding the
    rider's nearest and dearest, well, that is between the riders and
    their nearest and dearest.
    Pip Luscher, Apr 11, 2008
  14. Brownz @ Work

    Pete Fisher Guest

    I really meant, when did the very first Prohibited Area ever get
    designated on the mountain circuit? I dare say it was more than 20 years
    ago. From watching some of the old footage I suspect the earliest ones
    may have been in direct response to incidents such as ramming the boozer
    door at Ballacraine.
    In the last 20 or so in terms of outright top speed perhaps. Over a
    longer period, and in terms of better tyres, suspension etc. there has
    to be a significant increase on some sections surely or the lap record
    would still be 100 mph. If a rider loses it in some formerly slow
    sections at the sort of speed they can attain now, the potential for the
    machine to end up further in to the scenery could be greater IMO. I'm
    sure you are right that the change in attitudes has probably been more
    significant of late. The 'safe' areas will remain safe until another
    freak accident happens. Over considerable sections of the circuit it
    will never happen.
    Either physically, due to impenetrable hedges (I am sure you could never
    watch on the exit from Bishop's Court in years gone by for that reason),
    or as a result of being fenced off securely by landowners not prepared
    to allow access. I can think of a couple of places where you couldn't
    get into before that have been opened up.
    Hmm. As I said, I could be prepared to accept that the PA at Joey's was
    unwarranted, as such an incident couldn't be foreseen. The logic of
    ensuring that safety provisions that someone has deemed necessary for
    good reason are followed has to be followed, or sooner or later those
    responsible become complacent - a word the Coroner used. IIRC failings
    were mentioned when a spectator who rode into the rope at Quarter Bridge
    during Manx week 2005. A candidate for he Darwin awards perhaps, but I
    think it was found that the red marking of the rope hadn't been done
    properly. The attitude of the Department of Transport in particular was
    laid back even by Manx 'Traa-dy-Liooar' standards. BTW, did you know
    some spectators were also injured whilst watching on the Southern 100
    circuit on the Saturday after the TT?

    Fair point well made. Was that one incident directly cited by the HSE as
    the reason? Just how high would they have to get I wonder?


    Could be worse though. It took the Swiss 52 years to lift their total
    ban on circuit racing imposed after the Le Mans accident.

    | Pete Fisher at Home: |
    | Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest * 2 Yamaha WR250Z |
    | Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" |
    Pete Fisher, Apr 11, 2008
  15. Brownz @ Work

    Champ Guest

    That was George Formby, wasn't it? :)
    For me, the problem is that almost every accident is difficult to
    foresee. What level of paranoia do you employ? I preferred the old
    days when the marshals just told you to be sensible.
    I did, which just shows the utterly unpredictable nature of these
    things - there'd been no spectator deaths ever, and no injuries for a
    couple of decades, and then there's two incidents in two days.
    <grudging> s'pose so.

    I guess really I should rejoice that the TT exists at all in the 21st
    century. But it won't last for ever; I was amazed to find out last
    weekend that they've even introduced a smoking ban in pubs there now!


    ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R 600 racer
    My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle
    To email me, neal at my domain should work.
    Champ, Apr 11, 2008
  16. Brownz @ Work

    Andy Bonwick Guest


    Are they actually enforcing the ban?
    Andy Bonwick, Apr 11, 2008
  17. Brownz @ Work

    SD Guest

    SD, Apr 11, 2008
  18. Brownz @ Work

    Pete Fisher Guest

    A stunt by Cyril Standen if you want to be picky ;-)
    Still no periodic MOT for private cars or bikes though.

    | Pete Fisher at Home: |
    | Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest * 2 Yamaha WR250Z |
    | Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" |
    Pete Fisher, Apr 11, 2008
  19. Brownz @ Work

    ginge Guest

    They'd be different this time, natives on the inside, germans on the
    ginge, Apr 11, 2008
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