P plate training ...not

No, it's calculated based on what actually is "measured" (or more
accurately specified by the efi).

The efi opens the injector for a period according to what it's lookup
table tells it is the right amount given the parameters it has sensors
measuring. It ASSUMES the fuel pressure (and hence fuel flow) is
correct (unless there has been some new fangled advances in EFI I'm
not aware of). I know of no cars that measure actual fuel flow, they
usually calculate your fuel consumption based on the amount of time
they've opened the injectors, and the number of KM's travelled. Those
two parameters are based on a number of implicit assumptions:
- the fuel pressure is correct
- there are no blockages restricting fuel flow
- the size of your tyres are as specified and hence the number of K's
calculated is correct

etc etc

it's a reasonably accurate estimate and more than good enough for the
purposes for which it is used. That doesn't mean the actual fuel flow
is measured.

JL

 

I've got a 40 year old Tektronix 422 in the shed somewhere.

Theo

 

While all true, you missed that the electric motor of the fridge is
less than 100% efficient and hence some of it's power is also becoming
heat. Hence the room will be heated up by motor heat generated plus
light heat

JL

 

An Imperial Fluid Poofteenth is a cubic Imperial beesdick, and an
Imperial Poofteenth (weight) is the weight of an Imperial Fluid
Poofteenth of HP Sauce at ISTP (Imperial Standard Temperature and
Pressure: a bright but chilly morning in London now that Spring is here.)

The Metric Poofteenth is a very small block of Platinum in a jar of pure
Argon in a cafe in Paris, and you can't have it.

-----sharks

 

It's all that heat it's pulling out of the air, it's warming up the
engine and making it go faster.

That's why as soon as it gets warm in Melbourne, it's winter again

-----snarky

 

Why all this irrelevant obfuscation? Oh, Hello Hammo.

Yes Hammo, 10% does mean 10 per cent.

If it is produced and not used, it's probably wasted.

I must say I'm a little surprised that modern bikes use total waste
regulators. I haven't looked into it and most schematics would show a little
box marked regulator with no indication of what it contains or how it works.
I thought that kind of 'engineering' went out with the Triumph Zener diode.
Surely you only need to encapsulate a couple of components to make a switch
mode regulator. Otherwise you've got a 400-500 watt heater. In that size the
regulator would need to be glowing. People heat their bedrooms with that
much power.

Theo

 

We knew that already.

Theo

 

AFAIK; pretty much right. As I understand it, RPM and the input of
either the air flow meter(older cars) or throttle position
sensor(modern cars) and a few other things like temp and o2(lambda)
sensor give you the injection duration which is then used to calculate
fuel consumed and divided by distance travelled to give litres per
100Km

JL

 

Well, I hope your car flow rate meter is better than the one in my Norge. I
go 400 kms with a 23 litre tank, the consumption gauge says 5.6 l/100km, 20
litres fill it to the brim.

NB:- because a measuring device indicates 4 significant digits does not mean
that it has more than a 2 digit accuracy.

Theo

 

Actually he's dead right if you read it carefully - typical engineer's
wording though. They never speak english.

The MECHANICAL load is unchanged IE the effort to physically spin the
metallicy bits around will be unchanged regardless of electrical load.

HOWEVER if you then add the bit you guys are busy arguing about -
which strictly speaking isn't mechanical load as such within the
alternator/dynamo/generator (although it will be EXTERNAL to the
system) you are adding additional torque requirements to overcome the
additional physical resistance to turning created by the electrical
field.

JL
(not a 100% sure I've turned that into English successfully, it's
tough being a translator ;-)

 

See the oscilloscope part of this thread. Modern ones do, indeed, use
switchmode regulators, and it's a good reason to integrate rec and reg
because the SCRs which switch in and out get to be three of the diodes.

Oh I give up on ASCII art: http://zoic.org/sharkey/tmp/recreg.png

All the controller needs to do is to only turn the SCRs _on_ when Vsense
is too _low_.

So why do they still get hot? There's still about 0.7V voltage drop across
each diode/SCR, so with say 20A there'll be about 30W waste heat. A
decent heatsink in free air might get 1°C/W, so on a 40°C day your
regulator is running at up to 70°C.

A heatsink wedged under the seat of a VFR probably gets much worse,
explaining the high temperature. Semiconductor failure rates go up
exponentially: diode junctions are 100x as likely to fail at 100°C
as they are at 40°C.

-----sharks

 

And even sillier to forget which thread he posted it in and have to do
a search on "spooky" <hack spit> in order to find this bit !!

Will start another thread.

JL

 

The compressor is driven by the engine, via two belts.
---
Cheers

PeterC [aka MildThing]


'01 Yamaha FJR1300

www.dmcsc.org.au
http://eladesom.com.au/ulysses/
# 37181

 

John ....oh, never mind.

regards,
CrazyCam

 

Dream on tosser, dream on. I mean, it's not like you fucking haters
are opening your fat fucking mouths and sounding like a lot of an
idiot, is it?

Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX

 

(What a surprise, we've got the disingenious-hammo personality here )

The original discussion was about wasting fuel, right? (well, the
discussion after the one about p-plate training...)

Fuel carries energy. Energy is power over time. Torque is only a measure
of force - force on it's own has no relation to energy use and hence
fuel consumption.

Do you know what a Deux Chevaux is? Do you know why they call it that?
Do you know how many watts 2hp is?

My hovercraft is full of eels. By that I mean I have no idea what you're
talking about or how you intended it to relate to the section on my post
you quoted.

Yes, "Torque is the proper term when describing this rotational force",
you're right. Now explain to us the relevance of rotational force to
fuel consumption. (I'll give you a hint, you need to know the angular
velocity too). The other point that you seem to misunderstand is the
nature of typical (modern-ish car) automotive alternators. The torque
required to turn them is dependent not only on the rpm (angular
velocity), but also on the current flowing through the rotor windings.

I can measure it easily. The power required to run the headlights is the
voltage across them times the current draw by them. It's even easier
than that, the _tell_ me the power drawn by the lights in the specs -
typically 55W on low beam and 60W on high beam. If you refer to my other
post from yesterday, you'll see a rough estimate says that a pair of 60W
globes will consume ~100mL per hour. I'd call that "small but readily
measurable".
( http://groups.google.com/group/aus.motorcycles/msg/d249eb0c5d32f81e )

Well, if you're just laughing at the discussion, I'll probably ignore
your contributions on the subject then... If you genuinely don't
understand how alternators work and actually do want to know, ask, I'll
try and explain.

big

 

Just the one idiot between them?

-----sharks (us?)

 

<gets that stricken look as he realises he's missed the subtlety
again>

<sigh>

JL
(if I buy the beer will you give lessons ?)

 

I thought up a quick sanity check on these numbers on the way home last
night - I'm claiming 250W of engine output power for an hour consumes
~100mL of fuel. If I multiply that up to the ~4L per hour my Spada uses
on the highway at around 100kmh, it says I'm using 10kW (4L/hour is 40
times 100mL/hour, and 250W times 40 is 10kW) which is just under half
Honda's claimed max power for the bike. Seems to be reasonable to me,
I'm clearly in the right order of magnitude - I'd clearly be using more
than 1kW and less than 100kW.

A rough guess at the errors I've got seems to be maybe +- 20% for
alternator efficiency, and probably the same for the estimate of engine
efficiency - together they'll swamp any other errors, so lets call it
0.1L/hour +- 40%...

Seems to me that is easily enough to be measurable if you're careful...

big

 

How much does it vary around that average? Do you think you'd notice a
systematic ~0.1L increase on the highway?

big