[QUOTE] I'm saying any traffic and *especially* London traffic is no place to be complacent.[/QUOTE] Agreed. We have ridden round the UK on our Hols and we can actually sense our approach home (Nth London) by the driving / riding styles. And that includes many other big cities on the way. Things like having all the cars move over to let you past (not just the odd few), car's not jumping *every* light just as they have turned red and we even had a car stop on an empty roundabout to let us through (my Lundin gut feeling was that it was a trap and he was then going to run us over)! I have found the best way to survive in London traffic is to switch off the normal mental questioning of "WTF are you doing / where are you going / why are you doing that" and just resign myself that that's how it is and anything is possible (and apparently acceptable)? Right time right place works especially well in Lundin and becomes sharp with local knowledge and practice. All the best Cat. T i m