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Hats off to Rossi doing consistent mid 1m31 for almost the whole race to
win by 15s on road.

But.

I consider passing under waved yellow flags to be a lot more serious
than a 10s penalty. I think it should be a 10s stop and go at the
minimum. And given the recent disqualifications and bans, I think
there's a good case for instant black flags and disqualification.

 

To me the situation wasn't crystal clear. It looked like he made the
pass *before* the yellow flag was waived. A bit like Schumacher did in
F1 at Indy a few weeeks ago.

Hans
'02 520 EXC

 

Just before the pass the TV camera was behind them pointing down the
short straight. You can clearly see the yellow flag at the marshall's
post directly in front of them. The TV then switches to a head on shot
as they pile in to that corner. So the camera must have been right by
the Marshall's post where the yellow flag was being waved. That's where
you see Rossi overtake Melandri. I don't think there's any doubt that it
was a pass under a waved yellow. And it was the Bayliss accident which
happened in front of Rossi on the previous lap that he must have seen.

 

Strange opinion.
What I have heard from most technical commenters and former riders (i.e.
Marco Lucky) is that it is indeed a really minor mistake that should be
sanctioned just with a verbal ammonition or at worst a fine.
Peronally, I agree with them.
In fact, in the old days, when all the riders were real men and there were
no pussies like biaggi around, flags were almost non existant and not taken
into consideration.

 

I have that sneaking suspicion that he actually is that good and there's
less in the machine starting point than appears. You have to put it all
together. It starts with him getting the first proven development bits,
but then you add his experience, Burgess' experience, they're combined
machine setup skill, his riding talent, a goal (>10s gap) that the other
guy doesn't quite get, a clear track and you end up with 10 straight
qualifying laps.

So I guess I agree with you ;-)

 

Snipped for brevity?...

I to was beginning to think he was that good but after watching the race a
couple of times,
NOWAY... He's has got a major motor advantage and tires as well it appears.
He had enough power on that long straight
so that nobody could stay in his draft. I will give him credit though, he
was faster than everybody else was, "everywhere"... Whether Loris could've
stayed within the ten seconds envelope, I don't know. He's got a fast Duc
but Rossi's got "THE" rocket...Oh yeah, didn't he turn the fastest lap of
the race right at the end, that's the second or third time he's done that
this year. Makes me wonder about the tires he gets versus what everyone else
gets. Years ago, I had a conversation with Dick O'Brien (Harley's racing
chief) covering this same subject. His answer was, "give me one reason why
you wouldn't give your best rider the best stuff, the idea is to win isn't
it"? Sort of says it all, Rossi's on a roll for sure and with that, I'm sure
he gets the best they all have to offer, after all, "the idea is to win."

T3

 

I used the word "Burgess" as shorthand for "The whole setup team".
That's the chief mechanic, suspension guy, the electronics guy, the data
acquisition and interpretation guy, the...

Why is that? That's what I'm trying to get at. The days of a rider just
turning up and riding what they're given are long gone.

To borrow from another sport, it's the Schumacher thing. How long would
it take Rossi to build a team around him that can win? How much effort
would he, his team and Yamaha have to put in to match whatever
rider/bike/team combo Honda could field?

 

I don't argue that Rossi/Burgess have configured the bike to greater
advantage than other riders and their crews', but why would Honda want
to make it easier for a single rider to win? Doing so would only
increase the rider's stature at expense of the marque (e.g.: #46
instead of #1).

I interpret the "next year everyone's on equal machinery" policy from
Honda not as a level playing field but as an indirect declaration of
war from Honda to Rossi; he will no longer have as much say in bike
development and Honda will make an effort to see that Sete or Max or
Nicky are given the factory perks that they haven't been receiving up
to now, and that Rossi's requests will be given a lower priority.

Back to Julian's yellow flag comment, it's interesting that no less
than the guy relegated to 2nd place came out in defense of Rossi, and
says that the yellow flag is not visible enough and that it's too easy
to miss it in race conditions.

 

i you ever race on track, you'll understand that you hardly see anything besides the tarmac...

 

"Mark N" <> a écrit dans le message de ...

As Julian said, classical F1 discussion, is he better because he has a
better car or has he a better car because he's better?
I personaly think the team managers have the data and that the best paid is
the best rider. Rossi is today the best of the Honda riders.

You well know that talent is not enough otherwise your favorite Edwards
would be at the front. So Rossi must avoid this situation if he goes to
Yamaha or Ducati: all the money for the rider and then nothing for the bike.
To develop a bike you need a technical support with a lot of money. And
Yamaha is still at least one year late on the electronic control, comparing
to Honda.

 

I found it interesting that Nicky was getting zapped down the straight
on every lap, and was unable to overtake anyone even when in the draft.
His comments post-race were that he was very happy with the set up,
but I gotta believe he was down a few HP to the others in the top 5.
MotoGP has been just awesome this year. Too bad there's only one race
left to go.

JF

 

<snip>

Hi Mark and Co.
I lurk and lurk and it's amusing and informative and interesting - I
love that you guys take so much time to share so much, even when I
don't agree (especially when I don't agree!)!
I'm a big Rossi fan - better machinery or not, you have to have the
skill and the 'nads on diverse tracks and conditions and he's
certainly shown he has what it takes to go fast and do it consistently
- 21 straight podiums is it?
I know there's intense speculation about the innate superiority of his
bike, but doesn't it stand to reason that it would be an incremental
degree of superiority - would 0.5% better be enough to be dominant...I
think there's more to it...like not falling off...
It kind of bothers me to think we're getting to the point where we
almost expect the machine to be the sole deciding factor?
I remember being at the track years ago watching club races in Ontario
and seeing guys competing on shit bikes and riding the wheels off them
to win against guys on much better bikes - those other guys just
weren't as good/brave/crazy....
My point - maybe I'm a closet racing Luddite or something, but at the
end of the day, in racing, the best rider should win - maybe F1 and
MotoGP are in danger of killing the human element with
technology...though how you draw the line on the inevitable progress,
what is good for motorsport and what is bad, is way beyond me.
Maybe they should run two series - a prototype MotoGP series for the
constructor's championship, followed later in the day by a spec series
for the rider's championship...
Okay, okay, I'll shut up and go back to lurking!
Cheers all, Shel

 

It was not fair to give a penalty to Rossi after the race
at Donnington because he could have raced harder
and made up the time. However, this style of penalty
was not fair to Capirossi. He said he knew he couldn't
catch Rossi but had a good lead on the others. So he
just kind of cruised around and didn't push. If he had
known, he could have pushed harder and possibly have
won. Any penalty should always be a stop and go. That
way the rider is actually in his position and you don't
have this virtual position stuff. In the past it has
always been stop and go for a pass under the yellow.
Why the change?

 

I'll, study the video later but to me it looked like he passed before the
flag. Btw.: wasn't that post inside a long curve. Where does that flag zone
start?

That could argue well for a less serious insident as well as Rossi could
claime that he new where the accident were and that his pasing was nowhere
near the actual accident spot.

 

Paul B

I pretty much agree with Julian's post Re Rossi and Burgess' success
in getting the bike to work for Rossi, which is another way of saying
Rossi's various racing talents have a lot to do with the superiority
of the bike.

 

Well Barros was probably thinking the same last year when he signed and for
what result!
Not only he ruined its season but also got injured 2 or 3 times (like the
other Yam riders except Checa). Correct me if I'm wrong but after the
successfull winter tests the factory decided, just before the start of the
season, to switch from carburators to FI, with not enough test. The team
managers and the riders were upset, but nothing to do.
And we saw the result...
So Yamaha can afford Rossi but as a clever champion he has to secure some
technical background.

 

Just for the fun Mark, if Rossi is the actual Fogarty who is the new Doohan?

Be serious as an expert you well know that a better speed in the straight
doesn't mean necessarely more power (at factory level), but surely a better
set-up to go out faster of the preceding corner.

 

I thought I remember reading somewhere that the exhaust was personal
preference. It gave a slightly different response at different parts
of the torque curve. The riders chose which ones they wanted to use.
In fact, Rossi only recently changed to the new megaphone exhaust.

Or, Rossi was just carrying more corner speed. Rossi may set up
the bike a bit better than Hayden. I remember Hayden saying the
bits he runs are the same as Rossi's. They don't run the same
gearing. Plus, Hayden just jumped on the bike when he was on AMA.
Hayden is good and will obviously get better, but Rossi's clearly in
a class of his own right now.

 

I can't agree in that. Just before he went into the lead you could clearly
see him pull out of the last corner with slightly harder accelleration than
Capi (he cept a constant distance instead of loosing ground as you should
when behind in an exit) But as the better traction controll didn't make any
advantage anymore he pulled out to pass capi but the oposite happened, capi
pulled slightly away from him. This was quite clear as the whole shot were
shown from rossi's onboard camera. Then Rossi easily passed him on braking
into the first turn. I don't think there are that many other situations
where you can compare rossi's bike with others but Melandris Yamaha also had
much more straight line speed than the other Hondas. He passed Hondas, on
power, on the main straight at least three times.

I really can't see any proof of Rossi's bikes superior power. Tires - maybe,
setup - absolutly, suspension and chassi parts - hardly anything that makes
a difference.

/MBE

 

While I could agree with you on the stop and go, Capirossi can only blame
himself and his crew for not being able to read his board. I find his
comment postrace hillarious and a "just so typical racer-comment": Allways
an excuse for being the looooooser.

/MBE