Pick a speed, any speed...

Discussion in 'Australian Motorcycles' started by Uncle Bully, Jul 7, 2003.

  1. Uncle Bully

    Mot Adv Guest

    "Rainbow Warrior"
    So is 50km/h!

    Oh Okay - I'll make the limit 90km/h.

    Mot Adv, Jul 11, 2003
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  2. Yep the public in general are sheep and will wander all over the place if
    you let them, derestriction is suburbia is akin to telling people that
    stopping at red lights is optional.
    Rainbow Warrior, Jul 11, 2003
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  3. 200kph is stupider for a lot more of the public than 50kph.
    Rainbow Warrior, Jul 11, 2003
  4. Uncle Bully

    Mot Adv Guest

    "Rainbow Warrior" <
    Generally not, but it all depends - we don't all live, work and drink in our
    immediate suburbia, often people drink a long way from home through social

    There is no need for this, the derestriction application is best suited to
    multi-lane roads and high standard two-lane highways, this means typically
    good sight distances, often a couple of hundred metres to many kilometres.

    A flash of the headlights is permitted to alert leading traffic you'll soon
    be on their tail - overtaking.

    In any case Pat, - IF this is behaviour as an issue, it is just that, one
    that can be dealt with, it doesn't need a speed limit sign to fix.

    Look - I'll go to India and consult the Bashnee Rysharia mystic . . .
    Something MUST at first cause the SWERVE, what is the reason? A bee sting,
    don't laugh, a NSW Police officer was killed in the Blue Mountains after a
    truckie was stung, the driver had an allergy to them and was effected

    consider grumbling and
    What on gods earth posses you to suggest 30km/h? This is infinately
    variable and is subject to the prevailing delinneation, weather and vehicle.
    Your quoted 150 - 200km/h would not be a speed used on a bend but might be
    applicable to a freeway 'curve'.

    Police at point of operation are more than happy to target high-enders doing
    those speeds in a derestricted environment, you fall into the trap of
    thinking derestriction means top speed applies - it doesn't, but can be
    allowed IF and only IF the road and weather conditions so permit.

    Thing is Pat, just how many lengths of road allow just that - the top
    ending? Answer - very very few relative kilometres, to try so otherwise
    will certainly mean police attention.

    ROOS - Why is it I could pass a car @ 135km/h then a few seconds later as
    I'm a few hundred metres away I look in the rear vision mirror and see the
    slower vehicle has impacted a roo?

    Why is it I drive to Melbourne via the Princess Hwy - often at 100 - 130km/h
    at night, driving lights and not hit a roo? Yet at Batemans Bay region I
    stop and attend a Victorian Falcon that hit a roo - the driver saying 'I
    wasn't going fast - about 90, he's in his 60's? The limit here is 100km/h.

    Roo crash means reduce speed, certainly when they become alive and frisky
    and commonsense tells you 'slow down' on the road environs where bushies are
    alive and well at night. love those driving lights.

    I'd trust a large portion of aus.car drivers than typical readers of the
    Womens Weekly or Mens Penis Parade Magazine. You know full well that most
    here look and learn, and some are employed in some manner in the transport
    industry, we sometimes discuss Australian Cars:)

    So Australians are dumber than the German, Italian, the Hungarians, Suid
    Afrikanese, French, Russians etc etc etc, remember this then entails race
    and culture.

    Maybe we should put our hands up and surrender?

    Let me close this post by saying don't for a moment think I 'like' seeing a
    driver going too fast, often enough I am with, or slower than surrounding
    traffic - always have been, indeed I resent, because of my work, too fast a
    driver. I am not a road rager, but if I were to be asked if I am a good
    driver, my answer is no, not really, but I am certainly road and vehicle
    aware and my arrangement with society is to not cost it $ through crashes
    via insurance, or to the state as a trauma or road kill figure.

    I recall a magistrate, a great driver-handler of motor vehicles, knows and
    uses all signals, but in shit conditions related to heavy Sydney traffic his
    TEMPERMENT means his wife or someone else would drive, this bloke knew when
    to get in the passenger seat. I suggest we all do this sometime.
    Jeremy H. Pritchard
    Mot Adv
    Mot Adv, Jul 11, 2003
  5. Uncle Bully

    Mot Adv Guest

    "Rainbow Warrior" <
    No one proposes a derestricted city freeway, some could cope well enough in
    road safety, but improved speed limits would generaly suffice. Issue here
    sometimes relating to noise and nearby large populations etc and so on.

    (My apologies to various missing words and letters in posts - I am hurrying
    my responses and not spell checking all. Here, excessive speed kills).
    Mot Adv, Jul 11, 2003
  6. Removing speed signs will encourage it though.
    A roo does nicely.

    I'm assuming you brake heavily before impact.
    Yep and try to push him to 120kph if the road became unrestricted.
    The germans seem to have speed limits on non autobahns too IIRC. That makes
    them dumb too. Any major civilised countries you can think of that don't
    have any speed limits.
    Rainbow Warrior, Jul 11, 2003
  7. Uncle Bully

    Mot Adv Guest

    "Rainbow Warrior" <
    When I was a kid 1975 residing in Lae, Papua New Guinea mother, nicknamed
    'croak', reversed out of the garage over my pet puppy golden labradores head
    with her baby poop yellow Datsun 1000. The dog was asleep with its head
    under the rear left tyre. She had called, got no response. Blood

    I was later given a colourful parrot by the houseboy - it was allowed to
    stay indoors till one night it crawled into parents room bout 3am and got
    caught in mother dears gown - screetching madly awakening both. Parrot was
    then left to stand outside on fence at back veranda, all was fine till one
    night the neighbours dogs caught and ate it - coloured feathers all
    scattered through the yard, Peter was a brilliant parrot and could well have
    been Prime Minister of Australia.

    Same houseboy obtained another, a baby, - it got sick an died.

    He then bought an owl, it too got sick and died.

    My schoolmate was killed outside his home - he was run over, sad event,
    asked his mum for his speakers, spun a yarn about making a deal just before
    he died....

    Made the mistake of making a vegetable garden a few kays away from home, it
    looked like 'bush', but was in fact another garden owned by the feared
    Kukukuka tribe. They bound me yelling (them) and took me home claiming
    damage, they wanted compensation. Sounds like Australia thesedays!

    Went through a few Lae war tunnels, these were built by the Japanese using
    slave labour, mostly Indian. All well and good till we, brother, brothers
    mate Ferguson and another, found a live hand grenade. Ferguson diffused the
    thing. We ducked and soon as he used it.

    I had two dogs, 'Connie' a Japanese Police dog (bought over during WW2) and
    Pebbles. Both were fine till my move to PNG's capital late 75. The
    Japanese Ambassadore went to a function, arrived home late at night to find
    his two German Shepherds beheaded with their bodies thrown into the pool.
    Rascal gangs can be brutal and unkind.....

    An Australian man and his 'attractive' NZ girlfriend moved into our old
    house within 2 weeks of departure to Port Moresby. He went to the RSL, she
    was not feeling well and chose to stay home. Late that night with him at
    the club she was attacked by a gang of 8, I recall, raped and then brutally
    killed. The assailants returned across the road at the church grounds to
    resume their drinking.

    The old man sentenced most key involved to life, pity, soon after, the death
    penalty was introduced.

    Though a kid, PNG police detectives were stumped at a particular murder, an
    Australian bloke had killed someone in a hissy fit, a cursory look underside
    the murderers washed vehicle proved his guilt, washing and being stupid
    enough to use native staff to do the job of washing away evidence does not
    remove all the remains of a run-over victim. A good look for a kid.

    I was doorman-kid at Lae RSL - we'd get a few national drunks from the
    Friday night Nile Club dance, these would dare enter the RSL across the road
    and would be confronted by a reasoning 'mangi-masta', swaggering and
    listening in pisin english to my reasons why in their staggering state they
    should not enter, 'nogut yu mait pundown na brokim lek bilong yu' They'd
    leave without an issue!

    Hell, not one drunk got through, RSL's national staff would leave me on the
    door each Friday and most Saturday nights., no more rocks thrown etc.

    Skeletons? I was a neglected kid...

    My move to Moresby I celebrated by paying 50toea (cents) for a small tabby
    kitten, came home from school to find it had been accidently crushed by
    mother dear - she had closed a heavy steel rimmed-glass door and had not
    seen the kitten running outside that very moment, blood everywhere with one
    crushed kitten head.

    Mother and pets don't mix.

    Moresby car - A Nissan 360C PNG Registration AAA 100.

    Went to a Moresby pub - got to see two blokes walk in and over to another,
    watched as they axed him to death chop after chop after chop, they left
    immediately and went straight across the road to Boroko Police station to
    surrender. Payback you see, I noted that not one hard fast swing of the axe
    completely severes an arm or other limb, it can take a few, I noted the
    bowels, you get this with bullet wounds and axes, headwounds are very

    Learn't to shoot as a kid, taught by RSL Morebe district and gained further
    experience with PNG's then Public Prosecutor after 75. Pistol shooting!

    Experienced a magistrate driving his Mercedes @ 160km/h outside rural Port
    Moresby, did repeated hard braking from 160km/h, not me the magistrate. He
    liked German engineering. Saw my first rear fog lamp and triangle!!

    Experienced the stress Magisterial service sometimes wrought, depression and
    family breakup, - this bloke got drunk and shot himself - he lived but his
    arm was stuffed, bloody messy really.

    Learnt to play with teargas. At Moresby 76 the Commonwealth Bank Managers
    residence accross the road from my place had tear gas cannisters in the
    downstairs garage, these were always fun.

    Snakes were always a hazard, mosly harmless but as a kid walking home in the
    pitch dark by yourself from being down the road, the feeling you get when a
    tree snake falls on you is a memory you'll always remember, bloody things,
    you'd see many a snake body run over on the road, fresh daily!

    Late one night I took a wig head dummy, added a stick, white sheeting, wig
    and placed the 'thing' in the middle of the intersection. PNG folk were
    superstitious and my 'apparition' was noticed by a slow moving Police paddy
    wagon - shining the torch on it they took off, poor bastards.

    A mate and I played dead, at Lae War Cemetary, natives would use the
    Cemetary (VERY large area) to go from one part of town to another. They'd
    poke us (supersticion again) with sticks and call "yu alright mangi masta?"
    and we'd not move a bloody muscle till we'd then scream and scare the
    bejesus out of em.

    A 'masali' is a ghost or spirit.

    At Moresby I walked down the hill to Koki Markets - at the first elevation
    road below was a heard of natives surrounding a crashed passenger van, it
    was a recent incident and the deceased Australian bloke and what was either
    his native passenger or pedestrian were were laying grotesquely in front of
    the flipped to its side van. Blood, some with a trail actually. No
    seatbelts and through the windscreen.

    Some natives were murmering something, I eventually went on to the markets,
    police and authorities took some time to arrive. Had thought about slowing
    traffic down but figured the largish gathering crowd blocking would do the

    Dad later jailed for 2 years the Justice Minister for Contempt of Court, she
    was let out of jail by the Prime Minsiter the next day. In protest he
    resigned, as did a total of 5 judges of the then total 7, leaving the
    countries judiciary in dissaray for months.

    We had armed police guards around the house, they would speak and tell of
    their serious concerns for the future, these were mostly younger educated
    officers, I left PNG the next day and missed saying goodbye to some friends,
    parents arrived a few months later.

    As usual, Australia's politicians were as gutless and distant as ever in
    that PNG crises. I considered them weak as I did the Aussie kid who
    visiting PNG made a remark about one of the native kids at Boroko in a shop,
    brave little Aussie prick thought I - so I clobered him one good.

    I returned to Australia and continued schooling 1980, - the 'system' and
    sheer lack of respect shown to teachers and elder citizens was a shock, the
    whole obvious dysfunction of Australian society was borne home, I had left
    Australia in 1969, I considered 1980's Australia weak and and pitiful and
    certainly not the image I had developed in my mind of Australia's toughened
    WW2 generation I grew up with in Malaysia and Papua New Guinea, I saw for
    myself what these men went through and the sheer Japanese industriousness of
    their campaign, the reinforced cave complexes at Rabaul being the Naval
    Command for Nippon Pacific. The remains of weaponry and indeed soldiers.
    The last Japanes soldier gave himself up a few years ago.

    Do I have skeletons Rainbow?

    No, not really, but I am steadfast and steely in resolve.

    This is not the type of road proposed for derestriction.

    Mot Adv, Jul 11, 2003
  8. Uncle Bully

    Mot Adv Guest

    "Rainbow Warrior"
    Nope - I'll not push anyone, if this blokes happy and safe at 90km/h then
    good for him. If you wish to go slower or faster in derestriction, go ahead
    but be in control.

    I, nor anyone else has argued against all speed limits, you have missed
    this. Speed derestriction and speed limits are part n parcel of overall
    speed management.
    Mot Adv, Jul 11, 2003
  9. Uncle Bully

    TheTaipan Guest

    I'm on your side, but I want to quietly tell you about this car called the
    Ford Explorer -
    not so affectionately known as the "Exploder"...
    TheTaipan, Jul 12, 2003
  10. Uncle Bully

    TheTaipan Guest

    Which is another debate for another time, but why do we have
    to stop at a traffic light at am when clearly there is NOTHING coming...

    Perhaps treating them as a "STOP" sign rather than waiting for a whole
    light cycle between the hours of midnight and 4am??

    Of course then you'd get people who treat stop signs' as giveway, and those
    that don't even slow...

    But I think it'd make an interesting debate...

    TheTaipan, Jul 12, 2003
  11. In aus.motorcycles on Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:30:32 +1000
    Heh. trucks going through Ballarat in the wee hours used to do that.

    Without the courtesy of slowing down first.

    The problem of course is the definition of "nothing coming". If you are
    the one coming and 40 ton of semitrailer says "Sorry mate, thought it
    was clear" you probably won't feel that his definition matched yours.

    Zebee Johnstone, Jul 12, 2003
  12. Uncle Bully

    conehead Guest

    conehead, Jul 12, 2003
  13. All in the same catagory as nearly killing another human being with a car
    Rainbow Warrior, Jul 12, 2003
  14. Uncle Bully

    sharkey Guest

    Well, maybe you should try it just for the sake of science?

    -----sharks (and quit arguing with people I've killfiled!)
    sharkey, Jul 14, 2003
  15. Uncle Bully

    Neil Fisher Guest

    On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:15:12 +1000, "Rainbow Warrior"

    Yet 50 would make for "softer" hits. wouldn't it? Save lives, wouldn't
    it? Please note that I'm serious here, but this appears to be your

    See above.

    Neil Fisher / Bob Young
    personal opinion unless otherwise noted.
    Looking for spark plug leads?
    Check out http://www.magnecor.com.au
    Neil Fisher, Jul 14, 2003

  16. What am I? A Doctor, or a moon shuttle conductor?
    Scott Hillard, Jul 15, 2003
  17. Yep of course it would but there has to be some sort of compromise in
    between allowing for those who's vehicles/driviing skills are not up to an
    aus.car drivers standard.

    Not too many people calling for lowering a country road's speed limit by
    50kph, but seem to be a few here sure it can be safely raised by 50kph?
    Yep. If you let somebody have an accident at 50kph faster and it involves
    you travelling the opposite direction also at 150kph, then I think there
    would be a heap of safety relevance here as to your chances of survival,
    people still get out and walk away from 100kph accidents, chances at 150
    would be a fair bit less, and it would be interesting to consider whether
    much consideration is really given to car safety design for those higher
    speeds, probably the reason race drivers have rollcages and factory
    Falcodores don't.

    Brisbane, Australia
    Rainbow Warrior, Jul 15, 2003
  18. Rainbow Warrior, Jul 15, 2003
  19. Uncle Bully

    Neil Fisher Guest

    As many people have pointed out, it is a *limit*, not a target. If a
    great many people feel it *is* a target, then perhaps this is because
    they have been conditioned to this state of affairs, which may be the
    cause of a lot of crashes anyway. And your solution appears to be more
    speed limit conditioning, when the truth is that even the RTA, when
    pushed, will admit that exceeding the speed limit is causative in less
    than 8% of fatals. They still insist that more than 40% involve
    "speeding", so somewhat more than 4 times as many crashes are from
    going too fast for the conditions than are from exceeding the speed
    limit. Now, I realise that you will probably say that upping the limit
    will only make things worse. But I find that hard to believe, mainly
    because, if you care to peruse the stats, you will find that only a
    very tiny number happen on freeway style roads with access control -
    IOW, the places where most in here who advocate higher limits *want*
    the higher limits to be.
    Are the proposed roads not of the required standard to allow higher
    speeds? Are even 10 y.o. cars not of a sufficient dynamics standard to
    allow higher speeds? The answer to both these questions is: of course
    they are up to it! But you'd rather dumb down every driver to cater to
    lowest common demoninator, or so it would seem. More and harsher
    enforcement, coupled with lower limits does not help - the evidence is
    ample both here in Oz and overseas. The only plausable explaination
    for the UK's experience, as against, for example, Germany's, is that
    when forced to obey against common sense, most people simply push the
    boundaries of what is acceptable, even when that's ill advised. How
    else to explain the UK experience where mean freeway speeds have
    dropped from 90MPH (~145km/h) to 70MPH (~112km/h), yet fatals have
    defied the previous 30 year trend and stalled, or even increased, in
    the last 5-8 years? Some have suggested that perhaps this is because
    they have reached the as-good-as-it-gets stage. Well, maybe they have,
    but why destroy an enviable record as one of, if not *the*, best road
    safety records by changing tactics? If it's not money, then it is
    certainly for political expediency. Safety subjegated to political
    twaddle! How very nice - makes you feel all gooey inside, dunnit?
    Undoubetly that is why Jeremy insists on X-over protection before
    going to derestriction. Many people currently advocate a 130km/h limit
    for a lot of freeway condition roads, and I couldn't agree more.
    Derestriction on such roads when they meet the required engineering
    Back to overall risk, don't forget. If you have a 50% chance of
    survival and a 1% chance of being involved, that's the same odds (in
    terms of being involved in a fatal) as a 100% chance of dieing with a
    0.5% chance of getting involved, innit? Note: figures plucked out of
    thin air to give an idea, OK?

    Neil Fisher / Bob Young
    personal opinion unless otherwise noted.
    Looking for spark plug leads?
    Check out http://www.magnecor.com.au
    Neil Fisher, Jul 16, 2003
  20. Uncle Bully

    Neil Fisher Guest

    On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:51:50 +1000, "Rainbow Warrior"

    And how many of these "crappy" roads are of freeway standard with
    access control etc? None. Zero. Zip. Therefore, by far the vast
    majority are not, in NSW at least, zoned for 110 - they are zoned at
    100. They are therefore not the roads being discussed, and are
    therefore irrelevent to the discussion. However, we'll battle on
    anyway. How many of these "crappy" roads are good for even 100km/h
    down their whole 100 zoned length? Not very bloody many!
    Of course it does. Even at 50km/h. And...? Ooooh, let me guess -
    crappy drivers, huh? Mostly, they'd be the ones that do the limit
    everywhere, right? Gee, I wonder who beat them into submission on
    *that*? Oh yeah - our inestimable RTA played it's part in that. Even
    though they had plenty of evidence that it wouldn't help - it should
    have been obvious from the distinct lack of improved safety when the
    100km/h default rural limit took effect. Yet the beatings will
    continue until moral improves - sure seems to be their motto.
    I didn't say you did. What I was trying to convey was that forcing
    people to drive to LCD will turn a *lot* of them into LCD. If, as the
    RTA seem to suggest, you obey all the rules and you'll be safe, why
    would anyone bother to actually *think* about what they're doing?
    Where did all the supposed benefits of lower limits and harsher
    enforcement go? Up the bloody spout, because people stopped caring
    about what matters, and focused on what they were (and continue to be)
    told matters; what the speedo says.
    Not at all. I want everyone to go at an appropriate speed given their
    skill, the vehicle etc etc. I'm pretty sure that you do too. The
    difference then, is that I don't feel that increasing speed limits on
    high quality roads would be detrimental to road safety and may
    actually improve it. You, OTOH, seem to be of the opinion that
    regardless of how well made a road may be, 110km/h is the fastest that
    *anyone* can be trusted to do on a public road. I must admit that I
    fail to understand why you feel this way.
    Ingeneous! How, then, to explain the previous 3 plus decades of
    downward trend? Did growth in the number of vehicles only occur in the
    last 5-8 years? I don't think so. Funny, too, that over that very same
    30+ years, mean and 85th speeds on motorways slowly but surely
    increased. So, we have a 30+ year trend of increasing speed,
    increasing number of vehicles and lowering fatalities that appears to
    have been stopped dead in it's tracks. Surely we need to at least
    consider the possibility that this has been caused by the significant
    change in enforcement practices that was introduced at the very same
    time? Surely this, as the most significant change in circumstances,
    would be the prime candidate? Most especially considering that the two
    seem to coincide, temporally. And even more so when we discover that
    at least two chief constables have publicly stated that they feel
    there is too much focus on speed enforcement and not enough on bad
    driver behaviour; that, without community support for what they do in
    this one aspect of policing, the effects will be felt in *all* areas
    of policing.

    Did you not see the word "if"? I suppose I *could* make the very
    arguement that you appear to be interpreting my previous comments to
    mean, on the simple FACT that the roads with the highest speed limits
    are also the roads with the lowest fatal rates. But I won't, because
    as you well know, it is, in fact, the engineering of said roads that
    makes them safer at higher speeds. That's the whole bloody point -
    they are specifically designed to facilitate (relatively) high speeds
    at (relatively) low risk. Surely we should take advantage of such
    designs? If not, what is the point in spending huge amounts of money
    engineering these roads to a high standard? Would we be better off
    building two, or more, times the length of road to "crappy" standard?

    Neil Fisher / Bob Young
    personal opinion unless otherwise noted.
    Looking for spark plug leads?
    Check out http://www.magnecor.com.au
    Neil Fisher, Jul 18, 2003
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