Ping TOG etc... [repost - 2nd try]

Discussion in 'UK Motorcycles' started by Sean_Q_, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. Sean_Q_

    Sean_Q_ Guest

    In "Ping TOG & other experts - Scrambler steering"
    I put the frame in storage and I'm waiting for a donor bike
    to show up (which is more likely during or just after
    the riding season). I'd prefer a complete, running (if bent)
    bike to buying parts, since I think I'd learn how it goes
    together by taking one apart (despite S'mee's helpful comment). *

    However, the project is giving me an ethical dilemma, since it
    essentially puts me in the position of hoping for a bike accident
    severe enough for it to be written off, which of course means
    a better than even chance some biker getting hurt -- both of which
    of course I hope don't happen -- but realistically I have to assume
    they will... Opinions invited on this point.

    My "Bonneville" would have a rake angle slightly higher than normal
    and a 50 mm longer wheelbase with unknown (to me) effects on steering
    and handling. Unfortunately this query has resulted in far more heat
    and flames than helpful advice. Sigh.

    * My original version:
    * S'mee's revision, demonstrating his level of confidence
    in my technical expertise:
    SQ
    '07 Triumph Bonneville (under construction)
    '06 Zuk S40
    '85 Dnepr MT-11
    The usual collection of retirees awaiting rejuvination
     
    Sean_Q_, Feb 24, 2010
    #1
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  2. It's going to steer slower, for sure.

    That's not necessarily a bad thing. It depends on taste - my Ducati is
    as slow-steering as they come, for example.

    Like I said before, my guess - and that is all it is - is that when
    Triumph started developing the Scrambler, they started with a Bonnie
    frame, and just bolted on high bars, a larger diameter front wheel, and
    narrower tyres.

    Unsurprisingly, that would have resulted in some very different handling
    characteristics from a stock Bonnie, so they made the chassis changes
    you noted.

    OK, so let's say you're now going back to a sort of roadster/cafe racer
    configuration. More rear-set pegs, lower bars, more weight on the front
    wheel, smaller wheels with fatter road tyres, etc.

    Blimey. You're going to get something like a Ducati, actually, with a
    Trumf engine.

    <Googles for 750SS chassis dimensions>

    OK, so this is for a 1999 FI model, but let's see. I can't remember what
    domensions you quoted for the Triumph frame you had, but this is the
    Duke's:

    Rake: 28.0 degrees
    Trail: 96mm (3.8 inches)
    Wheelbase: 1405mm (55.3 inches)

    From memory, yours has a wheelbase of... over 1500mm? It sounds like
    it'll steer like a truck but be fabulously stable in high-speed turns.

    Re-post the chassis dimensions, if you'd be so kind. I could Google,
    but...

    <fx: Googles>

    OK, got it. Rake is as near as dammit the same as the Scrambler. Quite
    a bit less trail on the Duke. And 1500mm wheelbase on the Scrambler.

    Yup, yours is going to want to go in a straight line all the time :)
     
    The Older Gentleman, Feb 24, 2010
    #2
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  3. Sean_Q_

    Salad Dodger Guest

    Hmm.

    GL1500 CBX1000

    R 30.0 deg 27.5 deg
    T 115mm 120mm
    W 1700mm 1495mm

    That explains a lot.
     
    Salad Dodger, Feb 24, 2010
    #3
  4. <G>

    It does, rather. The Wing must be one of the few bikes that steers
    slower than a Ducati :)
     
    The Older Gentleman, Feb 24, 2010
    #4
  5. Sean_Q_

    Bob Myers Guest

    Well, that would depend on just how many inches of rake
    it now had, wouldn't it? ;-)

    Bob M.
     
    Bob Myers, Feb 24, 2010
    #5
  6. Sean_Q_

    Lozzo Guest

    You've never ridden the SpazzTrakka
     
    Lozzo, Feb 24, 2010
    #6
  7. You guys sure are getting a lot of mileage out of me typing "inches"
    when I intended to type "degrees."

    Sig file!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "My Struggle" by Guess Who
    Translated into English by James Murphy---in the public domain

    Author's Introduction

    ON APRIL 1st, 1924, I began to serve my sentence of detention in the
    Fortress of Landsberg am Lech, following the verdict of the Munich
    People's Court of that time.
    After years of uninterrupted labour it was now possible for the first
    time to begin a work which many had asked for and which I myself felt
    would be profitable for the Movement. So I decided to devote two
    volumes to a description not only of the aims of our Movement but also
    of its development. There is more to be learned from this than from
    any purely doctrinaire treatise.
    This has also given me the opportunity of describing my own
    development in so far as such a description is necessary to the
    understanding of the first as well as the second volume and to destroy
    the legendary fabrications which the Jewish Press have circulated
    about me.
    In this work I turn not to strangers but to those followers of the
    Movement whose hearts belong to it and who wish to study it more
    profoundly. I know that fewer people are won over by the written word
    than by the spoken word and that every great movement on this earth
    owes its growth to great speakers and not to great writers.
    Nevertheless, in order to produce more equality and uniformity in the
    defence of any doctrine, its fundamental principles must be committed
    to writing. May these two volumes therefore serve as the building
    stones which I contribute to the joint work.
    The Fortress, Landsberg am Lech.
    At half-past twelve in the afternoon of November 9th, 1923, those
    whose names are given below fell in front of the FELDHERRNHALLE and in
    the forecourt of the former War Ministry in Munich for their loyal
    faith in the resurrection of their people:

    • Alfarth, Felix, Merchant, born July 5th, 1901

    • Bauriedl, Andreas, Hatmaker, born May 4th, 1879

    • Casella, Theodor, Bank Official, born August 8th, 1900

    • Ehrlich, Wilhelm, Bank Official, born August 19th, 1894

    • Faust, Martin, Bank Official, born January 27th, 1901


    • Hechenberger, Anton, Locksmith, born September 28th, 1902

    • Koerner, Oskar, Merchant, born January 4th, 1875

    • Kuhn, Karl, Head Waiter, born July 25th, 1897

    • Laforce, Karl, Student of Engineering, born October 28th, 1904

    • Neubauer, Kurt, Waiter, born March 27th, 1899

    • Pape, Claus von, Merchant, born August 16th, 1904

    • Pfordten, Theodor von der, Councillor to the Superior Provincial
    Court, born May 14th, 1873

    • Rickmers, Johann, retired Cavalry Captain, born May 7th, 1881

    • Scheubner-Richter, Max Erwin von, Dr. of Engineering, born January
    9th, 1884

    • Stransky, Lorenz Ritter von, Engineer, born March 14th, 1899

    • Wolf, Wilhelm, Merchant, born October 19th, 1898

    So-called national officials refused to allow the dead heroes a common
    burial. So I dedicate the first volume of this work to them as a
    common memorial, that the memory of those martyrs may be a permanent
    source of light for the followers of our Movement.
    The Fortress, Landsberg a/L.,
    October 16th, 1924
    Translator's Introduction
    IN PLACING before the reader this unabridged translation of Adolf
    Hitler's book, MEIN KAMPF, I feel it my duty to call attention to
    certain historical facts which must be borne in mind if the reader
    would form a fair judgment of what is written in this extraordinary
    work.
    The first volume of MEIN KAMPF was written while the author was
    imprisoned in a Bavarian fortress. How did he get there and why? The
    answer to that question is important, because the book deals with the
    events which brought the author into this plight and because he wrote
    under the emotional stress caused by the historical happenings of the
    time. It was the hour of Germany's deepest humiliation, somewhat
    parallel to that of a little over a century before, when Napoleon had
    dismembered the old German Empire and French soldiers occupied almost
    the whole of Germany.
    In the beginning of 1923 the French invaded Germany, occupied the Ruhr
    district and seized several German towns in the Rhineland. This was a
    flagrant breach of international law and was protested against by
    every section of British political opinion at that time. The Germans
    could not effectively defend themselves, as they had been already
    disarmed under the provisions of the Versailles Treaty. To make the
    situation more fraught with disaster for Germany, and therefore more
    appalling in its prospect, the French carried on an intensive
    propaganda for the separation of the Rhineland from the German
    Republic and the establishment of an independent Rhenania. Money was
    poured out lavishly to bribe agitators to carry on this work, and some
    of the most insidious elements of the German population became active
    in the pay of the invader. At the same time a vigorous movement was
    being carried on in Bavaria for the secession of that country and the
    establishment of an independent Catholic monarchy there, under
    vassalage to France, as Napoleon had done when he made Maximilian the
    first King of Bavaria in 1805.
    The separatist movement in the Rhineland went so far that some leading
    German politicians came out in favour of it, suggesting that if the
    Rhineland were thus ceded it might be possible for the German Republic
    to strike a bargain with the French in regard to Reparations. But in
    Bavaria the movement went even farther. And it was more far-reaching
    in its implications; for, if an independent Catholic monarchy could be
    set up in Bavaria, the next move would have been a union with Catholic
    German-Austria. possibly under a Habsburg King. Thus a Catholic BLOC
    would have been created
    which would extend from the Rhineland through Bavaria and Austria into
    the Danube Valley and would have been at least under the moral and
    military, if not the full political, hegemony of France. The dream
    seems fantastic now, but it was considered quite a practical thing in
    those fantastic times. The effect of putting such a plan into action
    would have meant the complete dismemberment of Germany; and that is
    what French diplomacy aimed at. Of course such an aim no longer
    exists. And I should not recall what must now seem "old, unhappy, far-
    off things" to the modern generation, were it not that they were very
    near and actual at the time MEIN KAMPF was written and were more
    unhappy then than we can even imagine now.
    By the autumn of 1923 the separatist movement in Bavaria was on the
    point of becoming an accomplished fact. General von Lossow, the
    Bavarian chief of the REICHSWEHR no longer took orders from Berlin.
    The flag of the German Republic was rarely to be seen. Finally, the
    Bavarian Prime Minister decided to proclaim an independent Bavaria and
    its secession from the German Republic. This was to have taken place
    on the eve of the Fifth Anniversary of the establishment of the German
    Republic (November 9th, 1918.)
    Hitler staged a counter-stroke. For several days he had been
    mobilizing his storm battalions in the neighbourhood of Munich,
    intending to make a national demonstration and hoping that the
    REICHSWEHR would stand by him to prevent secession. Ludendorff was
    with him. And he thought that the prestige of the great German
    Commander in the World War would be sufficient to win the allegiance
    of the professional army.
    A meeting had been announced to take place in the Bürgerbräu Keller on
    the night of November 8th. The Bavarian patriotic societies were
    gathered there, and the Prime Minister, Dr. von Kahr, started to read
    his official PRONUNCIAMENTO, which practically amounted to a
    proclamation of Bavarian independence and secession from the Republic.
    While von Kahr was speaking Hitler entered the hall, followed by
    Ludendorff. And the meeting was broken up.
    Next day the Nazi battalions took the street for the purpose of making
    a mass demonstration in favour of national union. They marched in
    massed formation, led by Hitler and Ludendorff. As they reached one of
    the central squares of the city the army opened fire on them. Sixteen
    of the marchers were instantly killed, and two died of their wounds in
    the local barracks of the REICHSWEHR. Several others were wounded
    also. Hitler fell on the pavement and broke a collar-bone. Ludendorff
    marched straight up to the soldiers who were firing from the
    barricade, but not a man dared draw a trigger on his old Commander.
    Hitler was arrested with several of his comrades and imprisoned in the
    fortress of Landsberg on the River Lech. On February 26th, 1924, he
    was brought to trial before the
    VOLKSGERICHT, or People's Court in Munich. He was sentenced to
    detention in a fortress for five years. With several companions, who
    had been also sentenced to various periods of imprisonment, he
    returned to Landsberg am Lech and remained there until the 20th of the
    following December, when he was released. In all he spent about
    thirteen months in prison. It was during this period that he wrote the
    first volume of MEIN KAMPF.
    If we bear all this in mind we can account for the emotional stress
    under which MEIN KAMPF was written. Hitler was naturally incensed
    against the Bavarian government authorities, against the footling
    patriotic societies who were pawns in the French game, though often
    unconsciously so, and of course against the French. That he should
    write harshly of the French was only natural in the circumstances. At
    that time there was no exaggeration whatsoever in calling France the
    implacable and mortal enemy of Germany. Such language was being used
    by even the pacifists themselves, not only in Germany but abroad. And
    even though the second volume of MEIN KAMPF was written after Hitler's
    release from prison and was published after the French had left the
    Ruhr, the tramp of the invading armies still echoed in German ears,
    and the terrible ravages that had been wrought in the industrial and
    financial life of Germany, as a consequence of the French invasion,
    had plunged the country into a state of social and economic chaos. In
    France itself the franc fell to fifty per cent of its previous value.
    Indeed, the whole of Europe had been brought to the brink of ruin,
    following the French invasion of the Ruhr and Rhineland.
    But, as those things belong to the limbo of a dead past that nobody
    wishes to have remembered now, it is often asked: Why doesn't Hitler
    revise MEIN KAMPF? The answer, as I think, which would immediately
    come into the mind of an impartial critic is that MEIN KAMPF is an
    historical document which bears the imprint of its own time. To revise
    it would involve taking it out of its historical context. Moreover
    Hitler has declared that his acts and public statements constitute a
    partial revision of his book and are to be taken as such. This refers
    especially to the statements in MEIN KAMPF regarding France and those
    German kinsfolk that have not yet been incorporated in the REICH. On
    behalf of Germany he has definitely acknowledged the German portion of
    South Tyrol as permanently belonging to Italy and, in regard to
    France, he has again and again declared that no grounds now exist for
    a conflict of political interests between Germany and France and that
    Germany has no territorial claims against France. Finally, I may note
    here that Hitler has also declared that, as he was only a political
    leader and not yet a statesman in a position of official
    responsibility, when he wrote this book, what he stated in MEIN KAMPF
    does not implicate him as Chancellor of the REICH.
    I now come to some references in the text which are frequently
    recurring and which may not always be clear to every reader. For
    instance, Hitler speaks indiscriminately of the German REICH.
    Sometimes he means to refer to the first REICH, or Empire, and
    sometimes to the German Empire as founded under William I in 1871.
    Incidentally the
    regime which he inaugurated in 1933 is generally known as the THIRD
    REICH, though this expression is not used in MEIN KAMPF. Hitler also
    speaks of the Austrian REICH and the East Mark, without always
    explicitly distinguishing between the Habsburg Empire and Austria
    proper. If the reader will bear the following historical outline in
    mind, he will understand the references as they occur.
    The word REICH, which is a German form of the Latin word REGNUM, does
    not mean Kingdom or Empire or Republic. It is a sort of basic word
    that may apply to any form of Constitution. Perhaps our word, Realm,
    would be the best translation, though the word Empire can be used when
    the REICH was actually an Empire. The forerunner of the first German
    Empire was the Holy Roman Empire which Charlemagne founded in A.D.
    800. Charlemagne was King of the Franks, a group of Germanic tribes
    that subsequently became Romanized. In the tenth century Charlemagne's
    Empire passed into German hands when Otto I (936-973) became Emperor.
    As the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, its formal appellation,
    it continued to exist under German Emperors until Napoleon overran and
    dismembered Germany during the first decade of the last century. On
    August 6th, 1806, the last Emperor, Francis II, formally resigned the
    German crown. In the following October Napoleon entered Berlin in
    triumph, after the Battle of Jena.
    After the fall of Napoleon a movement set in for the reunion of the
    German states in one Empire. But the first decisive step towards that
    end was the foundation of the Second German Empire in 1871, after the
    Franco-Prussian War. This Empire, however, did not include the German
    lands which remained under the Habsburg Crown. These were known as
    German Austria. It was Bismarck's dream to unite German Austria with
    the German Empire; but it remained only a dream until Hitler turned it
    into a reality in 1938'. It is well to bear that point in mind,
    because this dream of reuniting all the German states in one REICH has
    been a dominant feature of German patriotism and statesmanship for
    over a century and has been one of Hitler's ideals since his
    childhood.
    In MEIN KAMPF Hitler often speaks of the East Mark. This East Mark--
    i.e. eastern frontier land--was founded by Charlemagne as the eastern
    bulwark of the Empire. It was inhabited principally by Germano-Celtic
    tribes called Bajuvari and stood for centuries as the firm bulwark of
    Western Christendom against invasion from the East, especially against
    the Turks. Geographically it was almost identical with German
    Austria.
    There are a few points more that I wish to mention in this
    introductory note. For instance, I have let the word WELTANSCHAUUNG
    stand in its original form very often. We have no one English word to
    convey the same meaning as the German word, and it would have burdened
    the text too much if I were to use a circumlocution each time the word
    occurs. WELTANSCHAUUNG literally means "Outlook-on-the World". But as
    generally used in German this outlook on the world means a whole
    system of
    ideas associated together in an organic unity--ideas of human life,
    human values, cultural and religious ideas, politics, economics, etc.,
    in fact a totalitarian view of human existence. Thus Christianity
    could be called a WELTANSCHAUUNG, and Mohammedanism could be called a
    WELTANSCHAUUNG, and Socialism could be called a WELTANSCHAUUNG,
    especially as preached in Russia. National Socialism claims definitely
    to be a WELTANSCHAUUNG.
    Another word I have often left standing in the original is VÖLKISCH.
    The basic word here is VOLK, which is sometimes translated as PEOPLE;
    but the German word, VOLK, means the whole body of the PEOPLE without
    any distinction of class or caste. It is a primary word also that
    suggests what might be called the basic national stock. Now, after the
    defeat in 1918, the downfall of the Monarchy and the destruction of
    the aristocracy and the upper classes, the concept of DAS VOLK came
    into prominence as the unifying co-efficient which would embrace the
    whole German people. Hence the large number of VÖLKISCH societies that
    arose after the war and hence also the National Socialist concept of
    unification which is expressed by the word VOLKSGEMEINSCHAFT, or folk
    community. This is used in contradistinction to the Socialist concept
    of the nation as being divided into classes. Hitler's ideal is the
    VÖLKISCHER STAAT, which I have translated as the People's State.
    Finally, I would point out that the term Social Democracy may be
    misleading in English, as it has not a democratic connotation in our
    sense. It was the name given to the Socialist Party in Germany. And
    that Party was purely Marxist; but it adopted the name Social Democrat
    in order to appeal to the democratic sections of the German people.
    James Murphy
    Abbots Langley
    February, 1939
     
    krusty kritter, Feb 25, 2010
    #7
  8. Sean_Q_

    Sean_Q_ Guest

    Sean_Q_, Feb 25, 2010
    #8
  9. Sean_Q_

    M.Badger Guest

    Have a mooch round the articles here:- http://www.tonyfoale.com

    I can recommend the book. You'll soon spot deja-moo after reading it.
    Meh, that is how projects go. Half the fun is correcting it.
     
    M.Badger, Feb 25, 2010
    #9
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