Red Light Cameras

Discussion in 'Texas Bikers' started by Elmer McKeegan, Oct 9, 2004.

  1. Saw this in another newsgroup. Thought it was interesting. Looks like it
    may have some unintended consequences and I'm sure this stuff will be taken
    off the market real soon, so you might want to get a can or two now if you
    are so inclined.

    Of course remember anything used to obsure the plate here in Texas is a
    crime. I'm sure officers will start looking for this stuff if it takes off
    Elmer McKeegan, Oct 9, 2004
    1. Advertisements

  2. Elmer McKeegan

    fullstate Guest

    Hey Elmer -

    A while back on either a site, or a magazine, they tested
    several license plate obscuring products. Some were clear, some dark,
    some reflected light, etc.

    Bottom line was that none of them lived up to the
    manufacturers claim when the vehicles traveled under a surveillance


    Me and Mah 'Priller!
    fullstate, Oct 9, 2004
    1. Advertisements

  3. Elmer McKeegan

    ShadowHawk Guest

    Elmer - I fully agree that many communities are geared more towards revenue
    enhancement than to law enforcement - in Garland, they installed the
    cameras at several intersections, and the cameras have paid for themselves
    more then 5 times over (as of about 6 months ago).

    Are you (or Steve R.) aware of anything that has changed in the state laws
    that allow tickets to be issued without positive identification of the
    DRIVER of the vehicle? and not just the owner of the vehicle? Richardson
    tried lobbying the state to apss a law a couple of years back, but it was
    dropped because the wording did not state that the driver had to be
    identified... Richardson officials were upset with the dropping of the law
    - but in this particular case, the legislature looked out for the vehicle
    owners who may or may not be behind the wheel at the time of an alleged

    To me it seems that the fix for the cameras is not to buy a product already
    deemed illegal, since it obscures the plate... but to not run the red-light
    to begin with... (shrug)

    Rex S.
    ShadowHawk, Oct 9, 2004
  4. Elmer McKeegan

    Louie Guest

    That sounds like a good plan.

    Louie, Oct 10, 2004
  5. Elmer McKeegan

    The Family Guest

    Then why not just use the reflective spray to its greatest efficiency.

    Spray it on the camera lense(s).

    The Family, Oct 10, 2004
  6. Elmer McKeegan

    Bownse Guest

    But the history of these is that the controlling contract starts
    short-cycling the cameras to increase their share of the take. Shorter
    green lights and a quick flash past yellow nearly straight to red to
    catch more people in the middle of the intersection when they
    otherwise wouldn't have been. It's been pretty well documented.

    Photo radar is another similar situation. If I loan my car to my kid,
    why should *I* get a ticket and points just because I paid for the tag?

    In the UK vandalizing these cameras has become an interesting hobby
    for some. There are even web sites up that show pictures with
    locations of trashed installations. One favorite way for them to do it
    up right is to set fire to a tire that they place around the base of
    the mounting pole.
    Bownse, Oct 10, 2004
  7. Elmer McKeegan

    The Family Guest

    Sometimes, extreme offenses are cause for extreme defenses.

    Besides, the cameras are our property, if they're purchased
    with tax money.

    The Family, Oct 10, 2004
  8. Elmer McKeegan

    Brian Walker Guest

    I've heard of this stuff. Bottom line, when tested, it showed the
    license plate more clearly with it than without.

    I guess this would boil down to being like that CHiPS episode where
    Ponch pulls over this dude in a Texas Caddy and the guy gets really
    pissed off. He starts telling Ponch that he didn't get stopped for
    speeding because of his "devices". Out of curiousity, Ponch asks what
    the guy is talking about and his starts showing him all the foil in
    the hubcaps, radar jamming devices and detection methods he uses.
    Ponch then, after a few minutes of this guy showing off his toys,
    tells the guy that he doesn't use radar and he used his speedometer to
    get the guy speeding.
    Brian Walker, Oct 10, 2004
  9. The unintended consequences I previously mentioned but did not elaborate are
    that the flash back causes the image to be slightly distorted or completely
    unreadable. The problem is that in a lot of cases computers are actually
    reading the images, and if they read it wrong (distorted) you could get
    stuck with the ticket even tho you or your vehicle were never there. Now
    I'm sure you can fight it in court and win, but how many times are you
    willing to go to court until the guy gets caught.

    I believe Stephan R already showed that it would not be considered illegal
    in this state yet. So people could buy the stuff legally and cause you lots
    of headaches.

    BTW I agree don't run red lights, stop signs, or yield signs. If it turns
    yellow stop if you can, proceed if you have to, just don't meet me in the
    Elmer McKeegan, Oct 11, 2004
  10. Elmer McKeegan

    fullstate Guest

    The problem is, that the burden of proof becomes the responsibility of
    the person that owns the vehicle. In this case, you are guilty until
    proven innocent.

    From what I read some time ago from folks, and various articles, it is
    very difficult to get a ticket dismissed even if you can prove your
    car was not in the state at the time. At the very least, it's a big

    For the record, with the exception of your car being stolen, you are
    responsible for it. So, if you don't want to get tickets and crap
    from someone else driving your car......don't let 'em drive it. ;-)

    I also don't think that it should be considering a moving violation
    against your insurance unless it can be proven that you were driving
    the car.


    Me and Mah 'Priller!
    fullstate, Oct 11, 2004
  11. Usually to get away with not identifying the driver the violation is equal
    to the parking ticket. However it costs more and with a lot more teeth to
    get their money. But if its allowed to become law this session they could
    easily make a little change and the info is reported to the insurance
    company. With the way the laws are usually written they won't stop an
    insurance company from trying to get the info, its just that the info will
    be left at the city and county level instead of state. At least it was last
    Elmer McKeegan, Oct 12, 2004
  12. Elmer McKeegan

    The Family Guest

    Not that they wouldn't try, but I don't think an insurance carrier
    can consider a civil offense when rating a policy. These red light
    camera offenses are forced as civil issues because they can't
    meet the proof burden of a criminal offense.

    The Family, Oct 12, 2004
  13. Elmer McKeegan

    Bill Walker Guest

    Traffic enforcement is one of the tools that have been used for years to
    enhance revenue in areas without much tax base.. The sad part of all this,
    is that as drivers and citizens, we applaud and encourage the efforts to
    furthur control and victimize us..

    A couple of years ago, I got a letter in the mail.. It came from a city in
    California that I'd never been to.. They claimed they were about to issue a
    warrant and other drastic means to collect for a parking ticket.. When I
    responded, I discovered the vehicle described was nothing similar to
    anything I'd ever owned..

    After a couple of months of communication with them, and getting nowhere, I
    finally invited them to issue their warrant and I'd submit to arrest and
    then file suit against their city.. I copied everyone whose name I could
    find that served in official capacity of that city, including the chief of
    police.. Shortly thereafter, I received a letter from the mayor and the
    chief.. They informed me that a mistake had been made and it was all a huge

    I am no expert in these matters, but .. I think the ordinary person would
    have mailed the check upon receiving the first threatening letter from
    them.. If they mailed out 100,000 of these letters and received checks for
    10% of them, that is one helluva chunk of money.. If I recall correctly, the
    fine for the parking violation was $25.00..

    This camera fiasco is nothing more than a revenue enhancement tool to be
    used against the driving public.. As civic minded taxpayers, we should all
    support this kind of law enforcement tool and support our officers.. NOT..

    Most of us would rather not be upset.. Why bother.. it doesn't affect us ?
    Until you get that letter, like I got.. Meantime .. we've allowed furthur
    encroachment and sanctioned our government to take advantage of us, even
    more.. Think about it..

    Your friend in Irving
    Bill Walker
    Bill Walker, Oct 14, 2004
  14. Elmer McKeegan

    The Family Guest

    I disagree. I don't believe most folks would have done anything
    different regarding your CA parking accusation. Folks can be
    pretty hard nosed when it comes to false arraignment, even if it
    is civil in nature.

    Of course, because of your time availability, the diligence used
    to resolve the matter might have been more extensive, but that
    is what makes being retired really fun. Once some entity real-
    izes that you can not be "timed out".

    Actually, the phrase "dog with a new bone" comes to mind.<g>

    The Family, Oct 14, 2004
  15. Elmer McKeegan

    The Family Guest

    Great condensation....


    The Family, Oct 14, 2004
  16. Elmer McKeegan

    fullstate Guest

    Bill -

    I have issue with this from the perspective that I don't
    believe traffic enforcement is purely a tool used by a municipality to
    gain revenue. I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory on this one.

    Now, that isn't to say that they leverage traffic citations to
    their advantage and I am quite confident that some of them do, even
    though they are not supposed to.

    So, I guess what I am saying is that we NEED traffic
    enforcement and it's not all there just to generate money.
    A lot of companies use these same techniques to generate revenue for
    the company. Happens all the time. I'm glad that you didn't put up
    with it and were able to get it dismissed.
    I don't buy into that. But, I do advocate that these issues need to
    be worked out BEFORE we, the citizens, should have to put up with
    being wrongfully fined. If the system were in place, and was
    infallible (yeah, right), is it WRONG to get a ticket for running a
    red light?
    Hear hear!


    Me and Mah 'Priller!
    fullstate, Oct 14, 2004
  17. Elmer McKeegan

    Bill Walker Guest

    The Beemer and I think a lot alike on some things.. Of course, he isn't as
    handsome and talented as me.. LOL..

    Regards to you both...

    Your friend in Irving
    Bill Walker
    Bill Walker, Oct 14, 2004
  18. Elmer McKeegan

    Bill Walker Guest

    What "conspiracy theory" ?? There's no theory or conspiracy even being
    mentioned... LOL.. Grandview is a prime example of the revenue enhancement
    enforcement.. East Tawakoni is another.. Florence, Texas is another.. Those
    municipalities use traffic enforcement to enhance revenue because they have
    minimal tax base.. Brownwood, Tx. is another .. however, they do have some
    decent officers patrolling..
    Yessir.. I never suggested elimination of traffic enforcement..
    Conscientious officers don't hide behind construction sites, coffee shops
    and convenience stores to serve and protect.. They don't disguise themselves
    as construction workers and they will assist in traffic jams and accidents..
    The fun part was when I played detective, found the registration to the
    vehicle license plate number.. Even the registration did not match the
    vehicle they claimed was mine.. When I confronted them with that information
    and invited them to send the warrant on down to Texas, is when I started
    getting reponse from them..
    Nossir.. the worst offenses take place in known locations.. Rather than a
    camera, an officer in that intersection would be more effective and the
    accident rates would automatically be reduced.. Hmmm.. maybe if those lazy
    cops would get their asses out in the open and out of that patrol car,
    they'd be earning their money, the taxpayers are paying them..
    Bill Walker, Oct 14, 2004
  19. Elmer McKeegan

    fullstate Guest

    Well, what you opened up with was more indicative of traffic citations
    being used as a methodology to enhance revenue for a municipality as
    opposed to being used to enforce traffic laws and keep the streets

    Maybe I just read too much into it.

    I am not sure I agree with that from the perspective that if you run
    the light, and are caught, what does it matter how they catch you?
    That's kind of like when a murderer gets off because they found the
    murder weapon, but didn't go through the channels to find it. They
    guy (girl) STILL did it, but now they get off because of the
    methodology used to obtain the evidence?

    You make a good point. How about getting the officers out of the
    topless bars and onto the streets. Are we saying it's more important
    to have a cop in a topless bar than it is out patrolling the streets?
    Murdering and raping people is not as important as a guy that MIGHT
    touch a breast in a T-Bar. Because that is the message we are giving


    Me and Mah 'Priller!
    fullstate, Oct 14, 2004
  20. Elmer McKeegan

    fullstate Guest

    I don't really have a problem with that. It's kind of like the cops
    that park the cars along the highways or in neighborhoods. You see
    the car, you slow down. Or maybe, if you are a criminal, you leave
    the area.


    Me and Mah 'Priller!
    fullstate, Oct 14, 2004
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.