Roberts Jr. on Electronics and motogp

Discussion in 'Motorcycle Racing' started by Ed Light, Aug 26, 2010.

  1. Ed Light

    Ed Light Guest

    Ed Light, Aug 26, 2010
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  2. Ed Light

    Bruce Guest

    maybe yes, maybe no.
    sure you can - they have control tires, no reason they couldn't
    limit electronic aids
    not really - occasionally an exciting moment her and there but in
    general the 800 era has been a giant parade snoozfest.

    for another take read a new guys take on Motogp bikes:

    where he spells it out pretty clearly that it is way more about the bike
    and setup than about the rider.

    Bruce, Aug 26, 2010
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  3. Ed Light

    Julian Bond Guest

    Not if they keep the 21 litre limit and not without a spec engine. You
    can go all round this but you end up in places like the AMA Suzukis
    finding a way to do traction control without traction control sensors.
    Even a spec ECU doesn't work given the different engine configurations.
    Or the situation where the most advanced road bikes have more
    electronics than MotoGP.
    And yet the aliens invariably end up at the front.
    Julian Bond, Aug 27, 2010
  4. Ed Light

    Ed Light Guest

    Ed Light, Aug 31, 2010
  5. Ed Light

    Julian Bond Guest

    Julian Bond, Aug 31, 2010
  6. Ed Light

    sturd Guest

    Julian Bond realizes:
    What if the FIM required wheel sensors front and rear and a
    throttle position sensor and put on their own d/a logger for those
    and maybe other data streams? Then post race they could
    look at it and see if there was any software (non-humanware)
    control going on. Seems like that could be made to work.

    Go fast. Take chances.
    Mike S.
    sturd, Aug 31, 2010
  7. Ed Light

    Bruce Guest

    that's a different question, the initial step is to recognize the
    problem, which you were in denial of (just and old loser griping)
    but now that the GOAT has spoken you accept and/or ignore that issue
    and move on to enforcement.

    the rules will need to be carefully made as to not make things worse
    but something needs to be done.

    Look at this weekends race - even though aspects are cool - spieas
    getting pole and a podium, rossi doing well even after numerous practice
    creashes etc. the race it self was BORING with a capital "B"

    a nice spaced out parade, only passing was the opening few laps as
    the ones with a faster pace made passes and then zoomed of - no real
    dicing or great moves, just motoring on by.

    Bruce, Aug 31, 2010
  8. Ed Light

    Julian Bond Guest

    Yes, the race was boring. Yes, *something needs to be done*. And even
    the GOAT is turning into an old loser griping[1]!

    But until somebody comes up with a viable alternative it's still just
    wishful thinking.

    Increasing the capacity while retaining the same fuel limit is going to
    make electronics even more important and the problems of getting a
    smooth and rideable power curve even harder. With the proposed rules, I
    can't see any reason why 1000s will be any slower in the corner or the
    racing any better. There's still going to be one perfect line and 4-6
    riders who can ride that perfect line for 45 minutes.

    [1]Here's a question for you. Will Rossi ever win another race?
    Julian Bond, Sep 1, 2010
  9. Ed Light

    Bruce Guest

    true, but thinking and discussions can be fun
    i think the fuel limits are nonsense

    as for other things, I like the idea mike had about having standard
    sensors/ data loggers that can detect shenanigans.
    I think so, but not as much as a would have a few weeks ago.

    Bruce, Sep 1, 2010
  10. Ed Light

    Julian Bond Guest

    And I think you're ignoring 5-6 years of development in tyres,
    electronics, engines. The fastest way round the track in 2012 will be
    2011, 800cc style cornering speed with 1000 style top end. Unless
    something changes in the rules, I just can't see anyone giving up
    cornering speed and corner entry speed when they can't get the extra
    power down on the exit. It's not about physics, its about development.
    Well the proposed rules as they are today it's 21 Litres for 1000cc
    prototypes. The CRTs will be allowed 24 litres, but nobody yet knows
    what a CRT team is or even if there will be any.
    Julian Bond, Sep 1, 2010
  11. Ed Light

    Julian Bond Guest

    I have suggested this to people who know about these things. The reply
    was that if the limit was 24L, they'd find ways of using the extra and
    still pushing the boundaries to the point where electronics were needed
    to manage the fuel consumption. We'd be right back where we were, just
    with more powerful engines. It wouldn't make the racing any better, just

    It does seem that whatever gets suggested has unintended consequences.
    Rules designed to cut costs actually increase costs. Rules designed to
    improve the racing make the racing worse. It's enough to make you think
    they should stop trying, throw most of the rules away and go back to the
    sort of rulebook we had 30 years ago. 1000cc, 6 gears, 150Kg, the end,
    (Honda Wins). The alternative seems to be a spec championship based on
    production engines with nothing that actually works in between.

    As we get closer to the CRT scheme, the ugly spectre of WCM keeps
    appearing. It's interesting to speculate about how fast a Yamaha M1
    style bike with it's carbon brakes and prototype Ohlins but with an
    unlimited tune and unlimited electronics BMW engine would be. There are
    rumours that this is being built. There also rumours that WSB won't let
    it race unless the engine is entirely re-made using the same reasoning
    as when they stopped the WCM.
    Julian Bond, Sep 2, 2010
  12. Ed Light

    Julian Bond Guest

    Whatever, we've been having that argument for 10 years at least.

    But now the career progression is changing. 250 4s, Moto2. And Moto2 is
    not necessarily the last step before MotoGP. Spies, Crutchlow are not
    Puig protoges.

    Then you look at Moto2 and it's Elias, Iannone, Luthi, Simon, Corsi at
    the front. Go over to WSB and it's Biaggi, Haslam at the front and
    Laverty a contender in WSS. Out of every name there, Spies is the single
    exception. All the others are short, lightweight guys.

    So what is it you hate about Captain Darling[1]?

    [1]Google image search. Puig is the spitting image of Captain Darling
    from Blackadder.
    Julian Bond, Sep 2, 2010
  13. Ed Light

    Julian Bond Guest

    Another take on this.

    The Bridgestone front tire. Unbelievable amounts of grip and predictable
    all the way until it lets go. It turned MotoGP into a corner speed

    I would also add that the TC everyone complains about (the banging and
    popping off the corners) is the least significant element in the change
    of styles that we have seen. Slipper clutches and the complex
    electronics which keep the wheels in line on corner entry has been far,
    far more important. Put the extremely complex slipper clutches and the
    Bridgestone front tire together and you get a single recipe for speed:
    Fast entry, fast mid-corner, carrying speed into the exit.
    Julian Bond, Sep 3, 2010
  14. Ed Light

    Julian Bond Guest

    It kind of goes like this. The Ducati engine configuration means it's
    naturally rear weight biased. They can't move the engine any further
    forwards because the lower cylinders hit the front tyre. Bridgestone
    develop a set of tyres to work with this. The front is super sticky to
    work with the lower load. The rear needs the rearwards weight transfer
    to get heat into it and work properly. Yamaha and Rossi switch to these
    tyres. They have to mirror the Ducati frame setup to make them work. So
    they progressively move the forks forwards takeing weight off the front
    and raise and shorten the bike to get the rearwards weight transfer.
    Because the Ducati worked the tyres best with quite a high CoG and lots
    of weight transfer to get heat into the tyres, Yamaha mirrors this.
    Stoner is off for a while and Rossi pushes development. Bridgestone then
    start to develop a compromise tyre that is somewhere between what Ducati
    and Yamaha want. This forms the basis for the control tyre. For whatever
    reason, Honda don't get quite so radical with chassis setup as
    Yamaha/Ducati and Pedrosa's lighter weight makes it harder to get the
    weight transfer the tyres are designed to work with.

    Then we switch to control tyres and Bridgestone base it on this
    compromise modified to be a little less radical so it more or less works
    for everyone at most tracks. It's actually Ducati who suffer most from
    this because the tyre design has moved away from what they need to what
    everybody else needs. The front tyre no longer works so well with their
    more rearwards CoG. Stoner can't just chuck the front in and rely on the
    front tyre to just stick. IMHO, he hasn't been able to alter his style
    by the fractions needed to work with the current tyre so what he gets is
    a series of front end crashes.
    I think something has changed at Honda. It seems it was them who pushed
    for the engine rule because it gave them an edge as a motor company.
    That fresh impetus and hope has also made them a bit more open to
    actually trying to get the chassis right. Put all that together with
    Dani's temperament which is to be stunningly fast when everything is
    exactly right and it all finally comes together. For the reasons you
    give along with some others, everybody else is suddenly racing for
    second. You can add in Dovi who's a 10th slower than Pedrosa, Stoner
    who's lost his way and the other 10 non-aliens who either don't have the
    last 10th or are manipulated into not having the machinery.

    It's entirely possible that Dani now wins every race left but it won't
    actually be enough. If they'd just hit form 2 or 3 races earlier or he
    hadn't fallen off at Laguna this might have been his year. I know the
    racing has been god awful boring this year, but I'm really looking
    forwards to the last 3-4 races. It's all more of a technical chess game
    than a proper man's sport but it's going to be fascinating seeing if
    Yamaha-Lorenzo or Honda-Pedrosa can keep it together long enough. The
    big fly in the ointment is if Lorenzo's pit lane start comes at exactly
    the wrong time, or if Pedrosa's 5th and 6th engine are one race wonders.
    Julian Bond, Sep 12, 2010
  15. Ed Light

    Nick Knowles Guest

    Thankyou, Nostradamus.
    Nick Knowles, Oct 12, 2010
  16. Ed Light

    Switters Guest

    And what a race that was!
    Switters, Oct 14, 2010
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