Sent to various Texan leaders:

Discussion in 'Texas Bikers' started by Wakko, Oct 21, 2004.

  1. Wakko

    Wakko Guest

    Sent to various Texan leaders:

    re: this article on,2933,136119,00.html

    "Shealey told CBS' "The Early Show" his son was told "he is going to be
    processed out of the Army with a general" discharge and was "very depressed
    about this."

    It's my strong feeling that these soldiers should NOT be discharged, but
    maybe even given medals for them to put their careers (in addition to their
    lives) on the line in this matter.

    I think they perhaps saved lives of other soldiers. I think that used their
    best judgement when their commander did not.

    Please contact Maj. Richard Spiegel, spokesman for the 13th Corps Support
    Command, find out who makes the decision, and let them know very many
    interested citizens are going to be focusing their attention on them and
    their actions. Many if not most would see no disciplining of these soldiers
    is neccessary or wanted.

    Thank you

    Waco Glenn
    Rowlett, TX
    Wakko, Oct 21, 2004
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  2. Wakko

    Brian Walker Guest

    Orders are meant to be obeyed? Does this include Abu Gharib?

    If a soldier, of any ranking, believes the orders given are either
    illegal or endangering to others...he CAN and is SUPPOSED to disregard
    them citing his reasons and reporting the incident to superior
    commanders. Soldiers are supposed to have a head on their shoulders
    and know what's right and what's wrong.

    They can not be made to follow unlawful orders or that which they
    believe would endanger others. This in itself is primary teachings in
    basic training.
    Brian Walker, Oct 21, 2004
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  3. Wakko

    Bill Walker Guest

    At this point in time, no one has any way of knowing what the circumstances
    really are in this case.. The actions taken so far, have only been
    preliminary.. Usenet judgement is not going to carry much weight..

    Several months ago, I posted some comments that addressed another issue that
    is relative.. Those comments were directed towards the makeup of our
    military, at this time.. National Guard and Reserve troops are NOT
    professional military personnel.. The seasoned professionals call them
    "weekend warriors"..These are the men and women who are from all segments of
    our society.. Although they have been trained and given the basics of
    military orientation, they have not accepted military duty as their primary

    That being said, their primary objectives are to complete their "tour" and
    return to their civilian jobs and families as soon as possible.. Their
    instincts aren't militarily developed as the professionals are.. The
    civilian mentality toward their jobs cause them to react differently than
    the professionals..

    Although each and every one is willing, and heroically sacrifice , the fact
    still remains.. they are not professional soldiers..

    During my time in service, (it must be pointed out.. I enlisted when I was
    seventeen years old).. there was no if, ands, or buts.. we were going to a
    war zone.. Korea..1951.. If we wanted to come back home, we better learn to
    obey without thought or question.. We did.. I survived that horrible
    ordeal.. I came back home. I will always be grateful to that marine staff
    sgt. that guided us through our basic training.. even though I hated his
    damn guts..

    Those were different times and different wars, although much is still the
    same .. militarily... National Guard and Reserves, are just that.. They
    should not be utilized as front line troops nor extended tours into combat
    arenas..Each of us chose to serve in our own way.. They chose to serve in
    units that were basically created to defend our nation inside our own
    boundaries.. National Guard and Reserves have been exploited to serve as
    "regular" troops, which is not what they were created for..

    How can we expect them to react differently than they have done ?? They are
    not professional military and cannot be expected to conduct themselves as
    such.. Each soldier has priorities and each one wants to survive and return
    to their loved ones.. The priorities of the professional soldier is to his
    commanding officers' orders .. first.. The priorities of the "weekend
    warrior" is to his loved ones and civilian occupations.. What the
    professional considers just ordinary part of the "job".. would be considered
    dangerous and unjust to the ordinary civilian.. The professional military
    men and women understand this mentality and accept it as they serve with the
    National Guard and Reserve troops..Some accept it with contempt and
    disdain.. Many of these National Guard and Reserves are nearing sixty years
    old and they have already served their country, they should not be there, at

    Until we know the full accounting of what has taken place with those people
    who are being scrutinized, all the keyboard experts and heroes who are so
    eager to blame and critique those men and women should just STFU and let the
    chips fall where they may..

    Especially some of the keyboard warriors on this newsgroup, who have never
    served militarily and have no idea what they are talking about.. Blood and
    guts comments and the eagerness to see lives ruined is soooo easy while
    sitting behind a keyboard ..The best advice for these clowns is to hit the
    nearest recruiting office .. Put your freakin' money where your mouth is..

    Your friend in Irving
    Bill Walker
    Bill Walker, Oct 21, 2004
  4. Wakko

    Bill Walker Guest

    There certainly are..

    They are everywhere, not just in the military, right here in
    Huh ?

    The armed forces makes an
    Maybe you should read my previous post that is directed toward this
    See above..

    If the captain was in control and they refused to show
    Shouldn't you just wait to see how this plays out before making the
    conclusion to ruin more lives with bad discharges..

    The captain was relieved of duty. He
    hmmmm... sounds as though the "captain" might be looking at a court martial,
    also.. However he/she is only another of the weekend warriors that I
    discussed in my previous comments on this thread..

    Those suppliers are not out in the
    Where is that "front" that we keep hearing about.. ??Ambushes along the
    roads and highways.. Homemade bombs left alongside the roads.. Car bombs in
    front of buildings.. There is NO "front" in this war..

    Only a step up from the gold brickers who sit in the
    NOW... we are talking "courts martials"...

    Sure, they could have been
    Shall we all become what the "enemy" is ??
    Again.. read my previous comments.. We were not prepared to fight a war like
    this one.. Civilized countries are seldom prepared for barbaric resistance..
    The United States should never have invaded Iraq without preparations for
    just this type of warfare.. Anyone with any degree of intelligence should be
    aware that no ragtag country like Iraq would be able to stand and fight the
    formidable military forces of America.. Our leadership is so misguided and
    foolish that they jumped us into this invasion before our military was ready
    and before our country was prepared to engage in guerilla warfare..

    They call it insurgent and terrorists actions.. In reality.. those people in
    Iraq are reacting to occupation by the United States the same way that I'd
    hope Americans would react should we be faced with invasion by an occupying
    army.. I'd hope that Canadians and Mexicans would swarm to help with our

    Don't blame it all on those people we've put in harm's way.. After all.. as
    I've said before.. they are just "weekend warriors" who never considered, as
    National Guardsmen they'd be sent in harms way in a foreign country..

    Your friend in Irving
    Bill Walker
    Bill Walker, Oct 21, 2004
  5. Wakko

    Louie Guest

    Well said!

    Louie, Oct 21, 2004
  6. Wakko

    Bill Walker Guest

    The comments I have made in this direction is to point out that the National
    Guard, especially and to some extent the Reserves were created to ensure
    that national emergencies in the United States were manned.. Much different
    than the regular armed forces who were deployed throughout the world for
    combat ..

    The Reserves are usually made up of retired or ex-military who were to be
    used to support the emergencies..

    The manner that they are being used now, has become a means of conscription
    without calling it a draft.. First time I heard of "weekend warriors" was
    during my second enlistment, just before the Viet Nam campaign.. For the
    more than ten years that I served, we were, for the most part.. "regulars"
    ... Some drafted and some volunteers. Many of the officers were reserve
    officers with long term obligations.. Few were career military and mostly
    were not regarded highly..

    At this time, I'd guess that the National Guard and Reserve troops that we
    have deployed, outnumber the regulars..

    Keep in mind that many changes have taken place in the military since my
    last enlistment.. My comments to the priorities that many of these troops
    carry into their service, are reflections of their civilian obligations ..
    Those are entirely different from the priorities of the "regulars".. I've
    questioned the merits of our military systems before.. Some of the questions
    I raised in the past, are being borne out today..

    Sad to say, that we have failed to establish the strengths and patriotic
    qualities in our younger generations that would cause a seventeen year old
    to survive, much less become an effective military member..

    Where I came from, the military was one of the better jobs that a young man
    could get.. Playing military games and being paid for it was a step up..
    Besides .my country was at war and I wanted to be a part of that..

    I did not want my children to ever be in that position .. Sadly.. my
    generation has failed in that respect.. We didn't mean to fail .. we just
    did.. What we are seeing in Iraq is the direct result of our failure..

    Your friend in Irving
    Bill Walker
    Bill Walker, Oct 21, 2004
  7. Good to see that Bill Walker is back to his old tell em',
    Bud! By George.

    ßjay jøhñ§øñ, Oct 21, 2004
  8. Wakko

    Bill Walker Guest

    If anyone takes offense, they should re-examine their own priorities..

    ..I feel very strongly about what
    Amongst those of us who served in times of war, there is no excuse.. We also
    were serving with our peers who were like us.. Our leaders have sent
    unprepared National Guardsmen to combat areas... These are factory workers,
    office clerks, and other people coming from civilian occupations.. They've
    not been oriented and trained .. Doubtful that most of them would tolerate
    or could withstand the kind of training necessary, to prepare them for the
    conditions they encounter in a place like Iraq..

    I've criticized the wisdom of depending on our weekend warriors to withstand
    the pressures and horrors of a war..

    I stand behind that criticizm and believe that we are seeing, first hand..
    the affects .. These people must be conditioned before any of them are sent
    into harms way..

    National Guardsmen and Reserve personnel are not conditioned for extended
    tours of combat.. They are not supposed to be.. Many of them will not
    withstand the ordeals that they will be exposed to..

    Your indignation is well served and understandable.. Thanks..

    Your friend in Irving
    Bill Walker
    Bill Walker, Oct 22, 2004
  9. Wakko

    Bownse Guest

    UCMJ is pretty specific about this kind of stuff. It, in on the very
    smallest way, is anything close to being like civilian law.

    As a group, they are probably lucky they're getting a general instead
    of a dishonorable.
    Bownse, Oct 22, 2004
  10. Wakko

    Bownse Guest

    Coming in after all the hype surrounding Mi Lai, we had quite
    extensive sessions on UCMJ and when it's appropriate to "question"
    orders. (note: question, not disobey) We were specifically told that
    we can bring concerns about the possibly illegal/inappropriate order
    at the time it is given. When appropriate, it can be elevated to a
    higher echelon. Most direct combat situations don't lend themselves to
    that process (ie: when under fire). IOW: You keep your head down so it
    doesn't get shot off, ask WTF and, if overruled, carry out that order
    "under protest". You then later report the incident, but you sure as
    heck don't stomp your foot like a baby, cross your arms and refuse to
    carry out that order. In the situation described they weren't under
    fire so only those there know if there was an attempt to "go up the
    chain" and if, after that, the higher ups refused their "protest" (or
    even if such a process was appropriate for the situation).

    Wanna bet they either never asked to speak to the next officers in the
    chain of command? Or, if they were told time didn't allow it ("Duly
    noted, Captain. When you get back, you can speak to the Colonel."),
    refused a direct order even after voicing their "disagreement"
    Bownse, Oct 22, 2004
  11. Wakko

    Bill Walker Guest

    When I enlisted in the military.. I entered "boot camp".. The first order
    of business was to shave my head .. and strip me naked.. They immediately
    commenced wrecking all the pride and dignity that I'd taken for granted for
    my short seventeen years.. We were subjected to this treatment 24/7 for
    several months.. not for two weeks.. When they had us totally destroyed,
    they commenced to rebuild us in the image that would mean our survival in
    combat.. This doesn't happen one weekend per month or for two weeks during
    the summer..

    I saw many of those recruits break completely.. They either ran away or they
    were discarded.. By the time the rest of us graduated from that "boot camp"
    ... we were disciplined and ready to be assigned.. That training and
    discipline was the only reason that I survived Korea.. Not quite.. the good
    Lord had something furthur in mind for me.. A lot of good men who went there
    with me did not come back home..

    The go to the same schools as Regular military. The only thing
    Those are qualities which are inbred into each of us, however.. I'll add...
    the discipline and orientation can only be instilled over a period of time
    and it is a full time project.. not one weekend a month and two weeks of the
    year.. Some of the most dishonorable and evil men I knew, also made the most
    fiercesome warriors.. The training and discipline made them good men to
    serve with.. I wouldn't want to share my table at home with any of them, but
    I was sure glad he was on my side..
    They should not be in the combat arena.. They've not been prepared for what
    they'll be subjected to..

    Truthfully.. they had no idea when they enlisted in the National Guard, that
    they'd ever be injected into a shooting war, in Iraq.. They expected to be a
    home front type support and never leave home.. We are saying much the same
    thing.. When I signed that dotted line.. at my age.. the recruiter tried to
    convince me to enlist in a reserve unit.. He informed me, that by enlisting
    "active" that I'd be shipped to Korea as soon as my basic training was
    finished.. As well as any seventeen year old could, I made the decision and
    stayed in service for a little more than ten years.. I'm convinced that we
    are sending people into that war zone who are not conditioned .. That is the
    fault of our leadership..

    Your friend in Irving
    Bill Walker
    Bill Walker, Oct 22, 2004
  12. Wakko

    Bownse Guest

    quoted by iceman
    Actually the use of the reserved units changed dramatically under Bush
    1 and Clinton. They became better supplied and trained and the nature
    of their training was modified specifically for how they are being
    used now (a near-line supplement to the regular forces). No troop
    could look at the changes and not know what their training was about
    unless they chose not to think about it. This was how the "peace
    dividend" was accomplished, folks. The purpose of those changes in
    policy were clear from the outset. Anyone who even casually maintains
    an eye on such things knew about it.

    Conscription means that the joined the reserve unit unwillingly. To
    the best of my knowledge, each member of those forces volunteered for
    that job. They were able to get "light duty" for quite some time but
    now they are expected to step forward and earn their keep. While some
    may whine about it, none of them can claim that such whining is
    justified or that the intent of their position was anything less than
    what they are being asked to do.
    Bownse, Oct 22, 2004
  13. Wakko

    del Guest

    The Guard and reserve attend the same basic training and tech schools as the
    regulars do. Also all guard and reserve units have full time members at
    almost a 1 to 1 ratio that train the regular reservist and maintains the
    equipment. The Guard and reserves have served in every war since WW 2 on the
    frontlines and have exemplified their selves with their service. A good
    example is th 45th infantry division.

    del, Oct 22, 2004
  14. Wakko

    Bownse Guest

    Who have a museum in Oklahoma City, near the zoo.
    Bownse, Oct 22, 2004
  15. Wakko

    del Guest

    del, Oct 22, 2004
  16. Wakko

    Bill Walker Guest

    With all due respect.. you are absolutely right.. Nothing in my comments
    should be taken out of the context in which they were offered..There is a
    purpose for which the National Guard was created..

    They were not created as a mainstream armed force, to be used outside the
    boundaries of the United States.. Again.. with all due respect.. the
    National Guard, as the name implies.. was created to ensure that our country
    was protected within.. There is nothing dishonorable connected with that

    The point that I make.. is that our leadership has misused the National
    Guard and Reserves by deploying them as attack and invasion forces..The
    present deployment of the National Guard in foreign conflict must certainly
    affect the defenses of our own country..

    National Guard forces were desperately needed in New York and Washington,
    DC.. when we were attacked.. They have been desperately needed in Florida
    and up the East Coast during the natural disasters that have occurred in
    those areas, lately.. Service in the National Guard and Reserves is
    commendable.. The way the leadership has misused them is in question, in my

    Your friend in Irving
    Bill Walker
    Bill Walker, Oct 22, 2004
  17. Wakko

    Wakko Guest

    Well, all these opinions from various posters are truly valid, and give some
    pause for thought.
    As I read it, there was a concern about tainted helicopter fuel in addition
    to the shoddy maintenance and lack of whatever.

    I have to say, I would have followed orders in this case. If I was on that
    mission and asked to deliver tainted fuel to front line troops, I would have
    tossed a grenade in the tank, walked over to the CO, salute and say "Excuse
    me, sir! Where did you say you wanted me to take this flaming heap? Sir!"
    Wakko, Oct 22, 2004
  18. Wakko

    Bill Walker Guest

    LMAO... you are pathetic..
    Bill Walker, Oct 22, 2004
  19. Wakko

    Brian Walker Guest

    You tell them!!!

    Anyone comes back from Iraq alive and with all their limbs, we should
    get an extra check in our taxes next year!!! There's no sense in all
    these "reservists" thinking they'll get to go to college without
    shedding some blood.

    Oh wait, isn't the biggest recruiting slogan about going to college on
    something called a GI Bill? I think I might've read something about
    that...yeah, was at the RECRUITER'S OFFICE.

    I'd like to see you when you come up on a armed robbery in progress.
    If you don't rush in and "earn your check", I'd be there demanding my
    money back from your pay that comes out of my taxes.

    This isn't a video game and it isn't a movie. This is real life and
    people are involved. Have we as a society become so callous(sp?) to
    others that we demand they get killed or injured to satisfy our "tax
    dollars"? I'm not justifying what those soldiers did, but I can't sit
    by and see people spew forth garbarge about how those soldiers need to
    obey all orders and "git kilt" because that's what "my tax dollars go
    for". How about understanding that these men and women are just like
    us and aren't that eager to get shot up or blown apart. I don't blame
    them...that shit hurts! Do you want to get shot and killed so someone
    can get their money's worth for their taxes? That's what you're saying
    here. Think about it.
    Brian Walker, Oct 22, 2004
  20. Wakko

    Brian Walker Guest

    I thought they were only used for "garbage detail" in New York City?

    In this case, the reservists are called up because we don't have
    enough military to go around. Being in a country the size of Texas, I
    find that pretty pathetic that we don't have enough "regulars" to go
    around...not to mention keeping reservists and guardsmen a couple
    years "called up".

    That's right! You tell 'em, Nurick+Ass! If they can't lose a few limbs
    and get shot up, we want our money back!!!

    As you say, "**** 'em all...and give us refunds".

    Well said...well said!
    Yeah, and that goes for the whining little pussy's in the hospitals
    who are gold bricking their way around. Imagine the idea of them
    limping like they only have one leg. They need to earn their keep and
    get back out there fighting!!! They still have one leg left that
    wasn't shot off!!! You tell 'em!
    You tell 'em! You're on a roll there! You GO! Little whining pussys!
    The idea they're getting paid by our tax dollars and not giving us our
    money's worth! Hell, we can't even watch while they get blown apart or
    sent back in body bags!

    That goes for all these police and firefighters out here too! The idea
    they won't run into a burning building and save my goldfish...I want a
    refund on my taxes because of that! Whining little cops! Sitting
    around and complaining...they knew what they were getting into when
    they got hired! What, did they think they were going to sit on their
    asses in an air conditioned car and get paid for nothing? Did they
    think they could get free meals at IHOP for nothing?

    </sarcastic response>

    Albert, you're truly an ass! You live up to the name you gave your
    company...Nurick+Ass. In this case though, Nurick*is*Ass. If you want
    someone to die or get injured to satisfy your little whim, get your
    lazy stupid ass over to Iraq and "gitter dun"!

    As for everyone else expecting to have someone die for their tax
    dollars, the same goes. I'm sick of seeing people complaining that
    they're not getting their taxes satisfied because someone isn't
    willing to die. I just hope and wish I'm there when the shoe is on the
    other foot. The whole bunch of you should be ashamed and embarassed to
    project views as you have. I won't have any part of it.

    I'm done with it!
    Brian Walker, Oct 23, 2004
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