There's a surprise...

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=32931

Didn't expect that, I really thought the days of the Laguna GP might
be numbered, given the Indy encroachment and the support class thing
and remaining Euro-grumblings about safety. I guess it shows Dorna is
determined to make a permanent beachhead of some magnitude here, which
is a Very Good Thing given that we won't have our own professional
series much longer. At least that development should make it easier
for Laguna to bring in industry sponsors - the Red Bull - Kawasaki -
Suzuki - Honda - Yamaha US Grand Prix...

Which is another issue - will Laguna run semi-pro classes from that
national club championship or will they go for the GP support classes?
I have almost no interest in 125, but I'd sure like to see that new
600-based middle class once they get that up and running.

Now all we need is WSB at Barber or New Jersey...

 

Mark N points to:

Why not again? As many merikans as any nationality racing,
biggest bike market in the world, biggest economy in the
world. Of course they want more here, not just a replacement.

And 125's are more entertaining than FX, stuporBike, and
Superstock put together.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

Apples and oranges but I admit I get more excited watching the 125's than
any of the AMA classes.

 

Let's hear it for the 125s

- Scott Redding. At what point do Aprilia sit up and take notice and
slip some good parts out the back door to his team? He reminds me of
Rossi when he was in 125s and could apparently ride anywhere on the
track. It's a style of turn in very late, absolutely slam it on its side
and then hold more corner speed than anyone else on bikes that are
supposed to be all about corner speed. He's riding that bike well above
what it should be capable of.

- Steve Bonsey. Now getting solid results but seems to be hitting a bit
of frustration perhaps brought on by not being able to get a front
running bike and/or find the next 0.5s in himself. But he's already done
amazingly well given his short road race career.

- Danny Webb. Overshadowed by Smith and Redding but he's coming up with
the goods

And a thumbs down for

- KTM over-extending themselves

- Honda effectively pulling out

- Aprilia deciding who's in the first pack and who's in the third. That
goes for 250s as well. Made worse because they're charging so much for
lease bikes.

- Bradley Smith. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Bradley's
clearly got some speed. He's inherited a bit of Pasini's bad luck and
then compounded it by throwing the bike down the road too many times. I
guess I just feel disappointed that there's too many flaws for him to
feel like a champion.

 

Oh, the wise one, please tell these unwashed masses before you why it
is that we should not like 125 GP racing. Do share your infinite
wisdom with the lowly ones...

 

- Youngest rider ever to get fastest lap in the race. His first race in
Qatar
- Youngest rider ever to win a GP.
- First Brit winner of a mainland British GP since Ian Mconnachie on an
80cc
- First Brit winner of a 125cc British GP since Tommy Robb on the IoM
- Rossi took 11 races to win his first. Scott did it in 8.

Which is all irrelevant really beside his apparent ability.

Did you see Marquez? He looked like one of those really irritating kids
who hangs out round your garage when your working on the bikes going "Is
that your bike, mister?" Either that or Alfred E Neuman.

 

Please do. What does "more meaty" racing mean?

Last night, after watching the Donnington GP, my wife and I were
talking about what we would qualify as the 3 pillars of road racing
performance: balls, brains, and equipment. We agreed that if one has
to choose, we like to see people relying on the brains. Having raced
lightweight and middleweight at club level, it strikes me that the
smaller bikes make for quicker action and more critical line choice,
which taxes the old noggin quite a bit.

That said, I love seeing all aspects of road racing in action. Lately
I've been getting my jollies watching European Truck series (now,
there's some sliding if I ever saw any).

 

Mark N says:

What gave you the idea I support Daytona MiniBike?
I do support MotoST on Saturday afternoon as it's been done
before, I was on one of the teams, and it was fun, no real distraction
to the rest of the race activity, and gave spectators something
to watch during slow time. It's barely pro racing though.


and:

You are absolutely wrong about that. This is an indication of how
much you have to learn about racers.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

I would think just the opposite. As a frontrunner who has sorted the bike
out considerably, you have to analyze a great deal where to pick up a tenth
here and there. As a non-frontrunner, you should have so many places where
you can improve that you need to prioritize which ones will be most
effective.

 

Let me clarify: as a non-frontrunner who is riding at neither the bike's or
his own limits...

 

Do you expect the demographics of GP support classes to change, when
they go 4-stroke? I got the impression you liked the idea of 600
production-based engines as a replacement for 250's, but aren't keen
on 250's as they are now.

Technology is nice (if that's what you're referring to by "more
technical"), but while I appreciate variety technology can bring to
the show, it can also bring homogeny as well as put people out of
competition if they are on unsorted or underperforming technology.

Balls matter at all levels. Sure, pro's are willing to hang it out
more than an average amateur, but no one is in it to ride over their
fear. Read Keith Code about how he advocates people sort out their
mental state. It's not about being brave as a key element. But it
can matter when someone decides to take a bigger risk, a la Lorenzo.
It doesn't usually work out in the long term, but when managed well by
one's experience and brains, if you have something in reserve, it's
good to be able to use it in appropriate situations.

Good point on physicality, though I look at it as being relatively
simple as compared to the other aspects. You're either an athletic
person or not. If you are, and your stats are reasonably close to
give you good potential, then you work on sharpening your physicality
to get the job done. Certainly commendable and impressive, when done
in an obsessively dedicated manner (Mladin).

Mental strength requirement is more or less the same on all bikes, as
far as I can tell. It's just that I think you get to play a bit more
of high speed chess on machines that are more forgiving on the power
and allow you to carry more corner speed. Doing your homework in
practice to get your machine set up, as well as figure out how to
build up your pace is not that dissimilar between different classes.

 

Seems to me that the replacement choice for 250GP is terminally screwed.
There's been interviews recently with Ezpeleta (sp?) and Flammini where
it seems pretty clear that anything built on 600-4s is going to require
a lot of politics to be solved. I just don't see how they can do it.
Stock engines even in prototype frames will be slower than 250 or
WSS600. And what is a "stock" engine, how will the homologation work, do
they allow twins and triples? If they allow tuning, how much tuning do
they allow? If they try to get round Flammini by forcing prototype
engines who's going to build them except Honda? And why should it be any
cheaper than MotoGP? And somewhere in there, they have to accomodate the
current suppliers, KTM and Aprilia.

495 or 400 prototype twins is going to be horribly expensive even if the
factories have the will to cut their 990 or 800 engines in half. And it
again pretty much excludes Aprilia and KTM who are the main current
suppliers although KTM could maybe resurrect their old 990 engine bits.

They can keep on with 250-2s twins but nice as they are, they're now
irrelevant and KTM/Aprilia keep jacking up the price for lease bikes. We
already have the situation where only 5 bikes are competitive on the
grid and the teams at the back are struggling to pay for everything.

So that's MotoGP2 screwed.

*If* you think there should be an entry level class. And *if* you think
they should be 50-70hp pure race bikes for teenagers graduating from
Academies and national support classes, it's a little easier to imagine
something like a MiniMono. Perhaps even with prototype singles engines
where the technology filters straight back into MX. Even if the engines
end up being modified production, at least there's no Flammini class in
direct competition, although the exact terms of the FIM agreement may
still come into play. *If* you think MotoGP3 shouldn't even exist or we
should get rid of the maximum age rules I really don't now what it
should be based on. Seeing as there just isn't anything in current
ranges between a bunch of 125 learner bikes, 2 or 3 250s and full on 600
sports bikes.

So that's MotoGP3 screwed.

I can't say I'd be that unhappy if everybody just buries their heads in
the sand and continues with 125GP and 250GP for another 10 years. Just
as long as Piaggio/Aprilia and KTM (and others) work out how to sell
competitive bikes at a reasonable price.

I think you're consistently underestimating just how hard it is to setup
a 125GP or 250GP bike and how hard it is to ride one competitively
against 45 and 35 other maniacs who all have the same burning ambition
to be Rossi/Pedrosa. Sure, there are big differences to what's currently
involved in setting up a MotoGP bike, but it's certainly not easy and it
is complicated. And it is more complicated than setting up a WSS600
bike.

Yeah, right. If it's anything at all, it's that it has become easier to
ride to within 95% of Stoner/Rossi/Pedrosa/Lorenzo. But riding to 100%
of them and disputing the lead is every bit as hard as its always been.
Which ought to make the racing closer and tighten the whole field. Which
it feels like it has. But go ask Melandri, or Hayden, or anyone in the
second half of the field if this year's MotoGP bikes are "easy" to ride.

 

So what is a 600cc stock motor then? Or a 600cc prototype motor? Or are
we talking about the dreaded homologation special? I'm sorry but I just
don't get this. If WCM weren't allowed to run a re-manufactured R1 motor
with loads of changed internal parts, how are the FIM, Dorna, Flammini
going to find something that they can all agree on in there that doesn't
just turn into a 600cc MotoGP. Which frankly nobody can afford except
*maybe* Honda.

KTM is asking for a 500 Twin prototype class. They seem to think they
can take their old 990 off the shelf and build a 500 engine for
affordable money. I can't remember if Aprilia have offered anything.

Fine. So we have a 2 race GP day that leaves out a class that brings
some of the best racing and is heavily supported by major sponsors and
countries. Ok. So you don't like 125 and what you perceive its doing to
the other classes. But 2 races and 2 classes doesn't work either. Hey.
maybe we could copy WSB and have 2 MotoGP races, a single MotoGp2 race
and a bunch of national support races. Yeah, that'll work.

If you don't know, why do you keep on about how its easier? Well? Oh,
right, logic.

Says you. Why do you find it so hard to accept that the guy is a major
talent? It may well be a very good bike but you've still got to ride the
bloody thing and those pole positions and the win don't "just happen"

"obviously the pace to go fast is quite difficult."

What I said, right?

Yup. That one's a mystery to everyone. Not least to Melandri.

 

On 2008-06-24 01:08:36 -0400, Mark N <> said:

Schmuck Buttbomb, err, Mark Nusbaum "detonates" again..

Ya' think?

Ahh, I see you're back to quoting Abrams again, I guess you got over
whatever he wrote last time..

Why, because you have none, or that you don't know squat about racer's,
or for that matter racing?

Actually Buttbaum, I'm thinkin' if anyone's absurd around here it's,
well, never mind..

Then I'm pretty much sure you don't know what you're talking about,
again. You see, there's a lot of guys who talk the talk,(for instance,
you) however, there's far fewer that actually walk the walk, it's
called having the BALLS TO BACK UP THE TALK!!

A classic move for sure, which, as it's obvious you don't know, is how
a lot of races are won. That is, one guy wanted it just a "little" more
than anyone else and was willing to hang it all out to get it too. I
dunno fer sure, but I heard somewhere it's called RACING!!! Who knew?
Obviously not you..

You're point being? Oh, that's right, I forgot, you don't need a point
to disparage someone else's view. It's your way, or nothing else and
just like the above, you want, or need everyone to make a decision
about the new AMA because *YOU* don't like what they're doing..
Dood, I got news flash, most folks, outside of those die-hard Fox news
fools, like to make up their own mind and don't really care for some
pompous Buttbomb to tell them what to like, or not..
Who knows? Maybe the new way will turn out to be crap, but I'd imagine
most folks would like to see it first before they make up their (own)
mind..

Ya'know, it's starting to look like you actually want motorcycle racing
in this country to fail, or die just so you could what?? Say you were
right? And this is from a dood who professes undying "love of the
sport?" WOW!!!
Racing *IS* entertainment and for fans/spectators little, or nothing
else, that you think it's something else, well, is revealing to say the
very least.. (Heheh, sayonara Sakakura! ;-)
The 4th of July fish fry is on, 'cause we be slayin' um' big-time!
Among other's, a 47lb Cobia, a 52lb bull Dolphin and more Yellowtail
than we really know what to do with. Oh yeah, it don't get much better!
Btw, you're invited, but it would prolly be a good idea to bring your
med records.. ;-)

Gotta go...

 

I think the issue with WCM was that they used an identifiable set of
production cases. What I see is an agreement between Dorna and FGSport
which is satisfactory to all, which means cover for FGSport on the
production thing and close-enough-to-production for Dorna that
guarantees reasonable cost and competitiveness. Yes, that means there
will certainly be a homologation requirement, a certain number of
generally-available motors of a given spec and probably at an
established price. And of course there will have to be some cash
payoff from Dorna to FGSport.

If the Japanese aren't interested, then it's a loser. And I think
anything that's truly prototype run under MotoGP-like rules is a loser
financially.

What I don't agree with is the "pure race bikes for teenagers
graduating from academies and national support classes" thing. But
that's because I don't think 15-year-olds should be racing in GP at
all, and that pretty much eliminates the possibility of graduates from
other national series - you can't even race in the AMA until you're
16. What I'd like is some sort of class that can and will spread to
national championships, basically using racing production equipment of
very low cost. 450cc singles might well be that, who knows, but I
think the motors need to be four stroke and the bikes bigger and
heavier, it needs to be somewhat like the rest of the classes. Less of
an immediate issue than 250, I would agree with Dorna on that.

You don't think he does, at least when he posted his best results
early on?

Why do you find it so hard to accept that the guy is a major

There's no doubt that he has a lot of talent, and he's probably
impressed a lot of folks who had some doubts so far this year,
including me. But you were talking about Pedrosa as a "genius" a
couple years ago, and I just have a hard time accepting that Spain and
the 125/250 assembly line can keep cranking out "once in a generation"
talents every couple years. If Lorenzo was on a Suzuki or a Kawi he
wouldn't be doing what he has, and nor would Pedrosa. Or Rossi, for
that matter.

Agreed, but every kid who gets promoted out of 250 onto a top MotoGP
machine can't be the Next Big Thing, can he? Unless it's the bike and
tires that's doing a lot of the work for him. And that's before
getting into what sort of advantage size might be playing today.

You tell me. What I was saying is that the bikes have gotten easier to
ride, which is part of the reason that these little 250 guys can get
on them and go. Generally-speaking, that wasn't the case on 500s and
early 990s - I don't think Spies would move from a SB to a 500 ten
years ago and say the same thing he did at Donington. And because the
bikes now make up a larger piece of the puzzle, it also means a very
good rider has a tougher time getting a less competitive bike to the
front. So what bike and tires you're on are more important than ever.
And I do think rider size/weight matter more than ever as well. Mike
S. once said he thought optimal rider size on MotoGP bikes is about
5-10 and 160 lbs, which I don't think was far off the mark before and
still is on SBs. But based on Stoner and Lorenzo and bookended by
Rossi and Pedrosa one might assume it's now more like 5-7 and 125 lbs.
You seem to think things haven't really changed that much.

 

Just saw this:
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jun/080624b.htm

Aside from the rest, I thought this comment was amusing:

"One thing everyone is agreed on is that to succeed the new class must
do what the 250s do now, provide a natural stepping stone to the
MotoGP class; that means high corner speeds and high lean angles. A
quick look at the comparative lap times at Qatar shows the World
Supersport field was about two seconds slower than the GP 250s earlier
this year. Take some weight off the 600, bolt on race suspension and
slicks and you've got a second; stick the better riders from the 250
class on board and you've got most of the other second."

So is Ryder's pro-GP bias showing there? Would Noyes view it the same
way?

 

Aye, there's the rub. We've got the FIM, FGSport, Dorna, MSMA and a few
other organisations involved and of course lots of money. With an
existing agreement that GP is "Prototype" and WSB is "Production based".
Regardless of what might work technically or what would be ideal, any
solution has to satisfy or at least keep quiet every player in the game.

Sad then that 4 stroke prototypes are now so expensive that none of them
can afford it, and 2 stroke prototypes are seen as irrelevant so none of
them want to play. 800-4s, 400-2s and 200-1s make logical sense just as
500-250-125 used to in the 2 stroke days. But even with the two strokes
each class evolved so that there was less and less cross over between
classes and factories were pulling out or didn't bother before 500s
disappeared.

It used to be that 125 and 250 were specialist classes where some people
stayed. Nobby Ueda was one of the last. But then what you get is people
taking grid slots in the class for 15 years and that means there's no
places for the next generation. So they deliberately limited the maximum
age to provide room for the newcomers. Then people were complaining
about tiny riders in 125 having an advantage so they put a weight limit
on bike+rider. So even a relatively lanky guy like Simoncelli could be
competitive.

Can you race anywhere in the USA before 16? Perhaps the AMA need to
rethink that if it means that people like Bonsey or the USA riders
coming up through the Red Bull academy (and there are a few) have
nowhere to ride.

Your grapes have gone sour, mate. Time to go back to the history
books[1] and look for riders who've taken the Rossi path (2 years in
125, 2 years in 250, jump to 500/motogp and do reasonably well) and how
often it happens. More often than you'd like to think, I reckon.

So you don't think Pedrosa or Lorenzo look like championship material?
Mind you, I suspect Pedrobot might just end up being a Mamola. Perhaps
he should go for the record number of #2 plates ever.

[1] [Aside to the crowd] This is of course a troll designed to waste
Mark's time...

 

Ciabatti: A They can't do it with production engines. It's that simple.
We have a clear contract - as they have a clear contract with the FIM
for prototypes, we have a clear contract with the FIM: everything which
is coming from production, it's our exclusive championship.

You mean the guy who commentated on WSB for most of the 90s. Ryder's got
a pretty unbiased view. The guy just loves motorcycle sport and follows
all the major championships. Oh. Wait. He's a Brit. Must be biased then.

 

Julian Bond says:

That's not true and must be from Mark N's post
I didn't slog through.

Yes. However, red bull cup is the first time you can
race "professional" class under AMA rules that
I remember.

However, there are kazillions of kids racing
"amateur" AMA classes everywhere here. Does
anybodyreally think Nicky or Bubba started racing
when they were 16? I've a video of Bubba being
interviewed in a motor home, as a new Fox hire,
at age 6. He's sitting next to Travis Pastrana
and Ricky Carmichael ages 8 and 10 I think.
All contract riders for Fox. All racing AMA
"Amateur" Nationals.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

No, Mark, the reason why GP bikes are capable of that is because of
available technology and rules that allow its use.