Thunderace Question

JackH · Aug 20, 2009

Baguette, sir?
Click to expand...

More like bugger it, madam.

Lozzo · Aug 20, 2009

Domènec said:

20 valves help, 20-30 kg less help.
Click to expand...

The FZR1000 Exup has 20 valves.

JackH · Aug 20, 2009

He that hesitates ...

... has to re-sketch his future.
Click to expand...

Oh well, it stopped me buying something I'd have kept looking to pick
holes in as 'it must be crap due to the lack of EXUP valve'.

Use charcoal, it rubs out easily.
Click to expand...

That, or 'x-no archive'.

Pip · Aug 20, 2009

Not an 'Ace, but a late FZR1000EXUP, hence why I'm aware of what kind
of flat spot you can end up with.

It sort of reminded me of a TZR125 when you locked the power valve
open in terms of the '(stuttering) calm before the storm', albeit the
FZR was obviously a hell of a lot quicker once the power kicked in.
Click to expand...

Stuttering, flat spots ... the sort of thing owners of standard bikes
spend a mint trying to cure or cry into their beer thinking about.
Fucking awful, they have no place in a modern vehicle. A MKII Escort
running 'top-end jetted' 40 DCOEs, OTOH ...

Anyway, it's something I don't really want at my time of life, much as
I sort of preferred TZRs with that kind of power delivery 'back in the
day' over those with the servo kit fitted.
Click to expand...

I see your point - being older although relatively pie-restricted
myself.

Well yes... and I'm not too fussed about an extra 10%, tbh... or that
it's an Akro system.
Click to expand...

Indeed - see below.

More I'm concerned about ending up with something not all that nice to
ride unless your bag is riding something above so many revs all the
time... and yet again I refer Sir back to the comment above about 'my
time of life'; I want something pokey but not to the point you have to
wring its neck all the time.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, 10% - let's see - a 'proper' Bandit 12 comes out of the crate
with, let's say, 95bhp. Japanese ponies, obv, but let's not go there.
Common scuttlebutt has it that any bugger can release ~10 more horses by
sticking a race can on instead of the foully restrictive POS that the
factory attach to the pipe. Ten percent, guv'nor, TYVM.

Now - I've had a couple of B12s and they're lovely, silly critters ...
for the money. I've had standard cans on 'em and I've had several
different race cans on 'em. **** me, I'd go for that 10% all day long.

HOWEVER - the most recent iteration was a complete ****: somebody'd got
at it before I got it, and not in a good way. The bloke I bought it
from (<cough>off ebay<cough>) was a trials bike rider who, at 45, wanted
something a bit soft and comfy but with a bit of tonk - so he bought a
B12. He did bits to it - I approved of the re-bushing of the back end,
with phosphor-bronze custom bushes, heavily greased and with nipples to
squeeze more in and the polished wheels - I disapproved of the bar-end
mirrors, the bellypan (wiv da 'No Fear' sticker) and the powder-coated
cam cover in silver - but he never gelled with it.

I liked the overall look of it (and the bellypan and mirrors came
straight off it) but it was so soft to ride it felt more like a 600. No
great shakes in the mpg department as compensation, but no shove in the
back, no hoisting of the front, no B12 bollocks. It was also a /pig/ to
start from cold, wrt the choke position/throttle position and a real
bastard to start when just warm, never a good sign.

So I gave it to a man with a rep as a good mechanic, and I gave him a
K&N and a Dynojet kit and a proper race can and told him to service it
properly as if it had never been serviced and to sort it out proper
style. This, I reasoned, would give me a level playing field to start
from, without me getting sidetracked with sorting out the basics.

He had a hell of a game with it, he said - the cams, for a start, were
'one tooth out' each. One one way, one the other. This is because
they're Gixxer cams, it turned out. Once he'd re-set the cams, it would
not run, dynojetted. He ended up with some awful combo of K&N filter
and Dynojet needles with standard jets, up two on the pilots and down
one on the clips, or somesuch.

I test-rode it on collection and hated it - /fuckall/ below 3k rpm, then
it smoothed out and became rideable. Awful stuttering around 2k rpm,
holding back, surging, you name it. We tweaked and tarted around with
it and after another two days I had it back.

I was never happy with it, and Lozzo agreed with me, it just wasn't
right. I took to riding it around at 3500 rpm as a minimum - and you've
done the B12 - it doesn't take much of a right thumb twitch at that to
get the thing going vertical and the horizon coming at you a bit quick,
like. Fine for the looney Bonwick types, but not for a semi-porky
ginger bloke, somewhat past the prime of life, who finds himself
contemplating the increasing number of silver beard hairs in the mirror
rather more often than the decreasing-size Gixxer Thous in the
handlebar-mounted mirror.

Having mumbled in my beer about all that, it /was/ a /hoot/. Grumbling
from the distaff side aside, it did sound good, it did hoist, it did
blur the scenery, it did make the horizon a bit more adjacent with every
twist of the fun handle - but at low 20s miles per gallon. It wasn't
happy in traffic, though, it really hated towns and it had a positive
disdain for bimbling. Loved petrol stations, though. So, it just
wasn't right.

I lent it to Loz, one evening - with appropriate cautions, including
"Stick a full tank in it before you bring it back". Range, by then, was
~70 miles to reserve. He was less than impressed by the consumption.
Filled it on the way out, filled it when he got where he was going (~45
miles away), filled it on return and the guage still wasn't smiling when
he got home. It went very well, mind, but didn't like hanging about for
his burd-of-the-moment in the gloaming, oh no. He agreed it wasn't a
happy bike, although it had grin-inducing qualities.

I bunged it at Champ at an *OSM, to get his opinion. Of course, SOW
that he is, he thought it was hooteriffic, wheeleing off catseyes,
sounding howlaroundish and generally pulling like a train. he reckoned
it was the second-fastest B12 he'd ever ridden, second to Hog's
'Bastard12' which Champ had just got off of. He reckoned it was pulling
fine, no hesitation, no misfiring, no fucking about and didn't need re-
working at all. Fucking racers.

Cut a long story slightly less long, the fucker died on me in the end,
after a aountry lane hooningfest on the back roads to Northampton. Went
onto three pots, refused to run at all below 3k rpm, started to stink of
hot metal, died in a pub car park. I got pissed, got on to Auntie
Carole, got onto a recovery truck and dumped the fucker in the garge,
where it remains.

I just don't like bikes that do the wait for it ... wait for it ...
there it is, change up NOW thing any more. So there it is, I agree with
you. **** me, that was a bit long-winded, but there it is - don't
expect it again.

As I see the EXUPless one has now sold to Some Other Fucker, all other
specualtion is irrelevant. Tough, man.

We await your future public vacillations, in a Nigesque stylee.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Lozzo · Aug 20, 2009

Pip said:

Cut a long story slightly less long, the fucker died on me in the
end, after a aountry lane hooningfest on the back roads to
Northampton. Went onto three pots, refused to run at all below 3k
rpm, started to stink of hot metal, died in a pub car park. I got
pissed, got on to Auntie Carole, got onto a recovery truck and dumped
the fucker in the garge, where it remains.
Click to expand...

Towards the end of this year I'd like you to bring that fucker to mine
with the new engine and a set of replacement carbs so I can marry the
whole lot together as a rideable bike for you. Bring that fairing you
bought as well, so I can get my mate Paulo to give it a coat of the
correct colour and mount that up for you.

JackH · Aug 20, 2009

Stuttering, flat spots ... the sort of thing owners of standard bikes
spend a mint trying to cure or cry into their beer thinking about.
Fucking awful, they have no place in a modern vehicle.
Click to expand...

Someone perhaps should have told bike manufacturers with that about
ten years ago when injection first started to become common place on
bikes. ;-)

A MKII Escort running 'top-end jetted' 40 DCOEs, OTOH ...
Click to expand...

Humm... have you seen how much well sorted Mk2s are fetching now?

There's a freshly fully rebuilt one that runs down at Lydden circuit
most track days.

Apparently the owner was offered £25k for it at one point, and still
turned it down.

I see your point - being older although relatively pie-restricted
myself.
Click to expand...

I suspect you would be impressed by my obvious dedication to the pie
fanciers cause, since you last saw me. ;-)

Cut a long story slightly less long, the fucker died on me in the end,
after a aountry lane hooningfest on the back roads to Northampton. Went
onto three pots, refused to run at all below 3k rpm, started to stink of
hot metal, died in a pub car park. I got pissed, got on to Auntie
Carole, got onto a recovery truck and dumped the fucker in the garge,
where it remains.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't be too difficult / expensive to get another lump for though?

I just don't like bikes that do the wait for it ... wait for it ...
there it is, change up NOW thing any more.
Click to expand...

I do... in small measures.

I'd still love to have a decent nick TZR250 in the fleet - the
original parallel twin one that is, not the new fangled reverse
cylinder import that looks every so slightly impractical and fragile
by comparison... to me at least, anyway.

So there it is, I agree with you. **** me, that was a bit long-winded, but there it is - don't
expect it again.
Click to expand...

Well... talking about muscle bikes, I recently had a hand in acquiring
something on behalf of Pater, which I used to occasionally pop up in
here and declare 'I want one of these'; a 1991 GSX1100G with a mere
18k from new under it.

It had stood for quite a while, so I've had the carbs out of it,
stripped them down, put it all back together, realised it was running
even worse, so took them back out, bought more o-rings / seals etc,
put them back together and realised it was still running like shite...
at which point I sussed I'd put one of what can only be described as
'top hats' on the wrong side of the needle in one of the carbs.

Anyway... I learned from my mistake(s) (1), and finally got it all
sorted for the old chap about three weeks ago, and having ridden it, I
still reckon they're a nice comfy bike, albeit one I could see myself
ditch surfing on at some stage if I had it, and which also is partial
to the odd bit of go go juice.

As I see the EXUPless one has now sold to Some Other Fucker, all other
specualtion is irrelevant. Tough, man.
Click to expand...

Shit happens.

'Plenty more sheds in the sea' and all that.

We await your future public vacillations, in a Nigesque stylee.
Click to expand...

<Orders a copy of 'Roger Mellies Profanisaurus' in preparation>

(1) As in, getting involved in something this much of a shit to work
on (2), that had stood for two years
(2) Because for something 'nekkid', it's not exactly well thought out
in terms of simplistic things like access to the air filter, as an
example.
Click to expand...

Pip · Aug 20, 2009

Towards the end of this year I'd like you to bring that fucker to mine
with the new engine and a set of replacement carbs so I can marry the
whole lot together as a rideable bike for you. Bring that fairing you
bought as well, so I can get my mate Paulo to give it a coat of the
correct colour and mount that up for you.
Click to expand...

That saves me replying to JackH, really. I have the replacement 'low
mileage, good' engine; the 'clean, dry, not fucked about with carbs',
the 'not a scratch on it, complete' fairing, to make it into an S. I've
got it all, except the incentive to get on and do something about the
fucker, which is still sitting in the garage, looking moodily at me
every time I open the door - and all I can see is the reading on the
compression tester, on the two pots that are easy to get at: #1, 125psi
- #4, zero.

If I don't get my thumb out of my arse - or more to the point, if I can
clear a space (work seriously in progress atm) and get stuck into it -
by the end of the year, I'll take you up on that, Fatty.

Hog · Aug 21, 2009

Pip said:

I bunged it at Champ at an *OSM, to get his opinion. Of course, SOW
that he is, he thought it was hooteriffic, wheeleing off catseyes,
sounding howlaroundish and generally pulling like a train. he
reckoned it was the second-fastest B12 he'd ever ridden, second to
Hog's 'Bastard12' which Champ had just got off of. He reckoned it
was pulling fine, no hesitation, no misfiring, no fucking about and
didn't need re- working at all. Fucking racers.
Click to expand...

Yes but mine had a stage 2 engine tune and a complete custom built exhaust
IYSWIM

Hog · Aug 21, 2009

Pip said:

I would assume (and I'd betcha that no bugger here has ever had
experience of an 'Ace that this has been done to) that there's a loss
of bottom end (having ridden an 'Ace with a seized EXUP, as I expect
you have).
Click to expand...

I had a late FZR1000EXUP which I ran on the stock pipe, then an open can
with the valve intact. I tried this with the valve set permanently open and
put it straight back to full operation. Then I tried an 'Ace at On Yer
Bike, it is almost the same engine I think? which had a full "system"
fitted, Micron I think, which seemed to me to pull and fuel perfectly well.

Hog · Aug 21, 2009

Lozzo said:

T/aces have enough grunt at the bottom end that no-one really notices
if the Exup fails and is then stuck in the open position. I'd rather
do away with Exup valves cos they are a troublesome PITA on even
slightly older bikes.
Click to expand...

They just need a bit of ongoing TLC they do, which they rarely get. There
are one or two companies do hi-tec coatings which would see them right.

Phil Launchbury · Aug 21, 2009

I thought that was a *lovely* pluralisation.
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# She said she was a dancer

Phil

Eiron · Aug 21, 2009

Hog said:

Yes but mine had a stage 2 engine tune and a complete custom built exhaust
IYSWIM
Click to expand...

What's a stage 2 engine tune?

Hog · Aug 21, 2009

Eiron said:

What's a stage 2 engine tune?
Click to expand...

The £1000 option
www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php?page=bandit-1200-96--2000

S3 by their menu but the 1st is hardly proper tuning work.

It had about 130bhp on the real wheel dyno.

Eiron · Aug 21, 2009

Hog said:

The £1000 option
www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php?page=bandit-1200-96--2000

S3 by their menu but the 1st is hardly proper tuning work.

It had about 130bhp on the real wheel dyno.
Click to expand...

Cool. It's rare to find someone who knows that engine tuning is more than
a pipe, filter and adjusting the ignition timing and mixture.

Pip · Aug 21, 2009

Yes but mine had a stage 2 engine tune and a complete custom built exhaust
IYSWIM
Click to expand...

Whereas mine was just fucked-about with. K&N, dynojet, race can on
standard pipes - and Gixxer cams. Great at the top end, no bottom worth
mentioning.

Hog · Aug 21, 2009

Eiron said:

Cool. It's rare to find someone who knows that engine tuning is more
than a pipe, filter and adjusting the ignition timing and mixture.
Click to expand...

Oh I think those guys know what they are doing.

Colin Irvine · Aug 21, 2009

Lozzo wrote:

They just need a bit of ongoing TLC they do, which they rarely get. There
are one or two companies do hi-tec coatings which would see them right.
Click to expand...

Eaxctly. My first one never gave any bother. The second one did
initially, but it was easy to strip down and slap on a bit of exup
juice I got from the T/A list. Never had any problems thereafter.

Lozzo · Aug 21, 2009

Pip said:

Great at the top end, no bottom worth mentioning
Click to expand...

Sounds like one of my exes

The Older Gentleman · Aug 21, 2009

Lozzo said:

Sounds like one of my exes
Click to expand...

<G>

zymurgy · Aug 21, 2009

JackH says...

Indeed - see below.

Cut a long story slightly less long,

**** me, that was a bit long-winded, but there it is - don't
expect it again.
Click to expand...

Ah, a return to form young Pipkins.

About bloody time too [1]

Cheers,

Paul.

[1] For bonus points, name that obscure RAF quote
Click to expand...

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