What helmet is that?

Clearly not.

 

That's a significant shift from: "I've never heard of their being shot
at by Tsahal"

When you're caught out, always best to admit you're wrong and not
wriggle.

 

I've found it best to ask for time to look into something if I don't
know the answer rather than give the wrong one but not everybody can
get away with that.

 

First, no, not exactly. There was a very oblique jokey reference to
the Liberty, which I picked up on and you didn't, because *you didn't
know about it*. And your reference to their never having been shot at
(or you never having heard of it) didn't deliberately refer to YKW.

And when it was pointed out, you didn't immediately start yammering
corrections but tried to divert things by drawing a laughable
comparison with the Belgrano.

And only now are you trying to weasel. *Shrug*

 

All right, then you're not.

<Shrug>

And we're both talking at cross purposes. Your choice.

 

Do you honestly think that the first time I heard of the Liberty
incident was a couple of days ago on ukrm and from the brief
discussions on here I instantly decided that it was all Israels fault?

All you need to do is use google to do a quick search and you'll find
that the majority of hits suggest that Israel had reason to at least
suspect that the vessel was American and that they should have taken a
closer look before launching the attack.

By using torpedo boats to launch a sea borne attack from close enough
range to identify the vessel. If the testosterone I suppose if we use
that as the modern day standard of identification skills the Israelis
were pretty good. fighter pilots were so fired up that they didn't
know who or what they were attacking the crews of the boats must have
done.

At least they didn't throw a fragmentation grenade at a civilian
hostage then claim she was blown up by a bomb strapped to her and I
suppose if we use that as the modern day standard of identification
skills the Israelis were pretty good.

 

The only scenario that makes sense to me is the onsite attackers saw
it was American and relayed that info back to control, who blindly
reiterated the commander's order to attack, and the guys at the scene
said, "WTF, I'm only following orders."

 

Got the link?

The only recent article I can find is from August 2010 where the
Editorial Complaints Unit has stated, in a response to complaint about
a TV programme that "the facts of the case have never been conclusively
established"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/ecu/2010/08/100804_ecu_generationjihad.shtml

 

OK, ta. I'm not sure what the deal is old articles on the web - I'm
fairly certain there's no onus to go back and correct things once more
information is made available.

As someone said, have you seen Henry's posts about 9/11? ;o)

TBH, I think neither side can take the moral high ground.

I thought you were posting from home.

 

There's a pretty extensive Wikipedia article on the whole affair.
Apparently, as well as or instead of being shot by the IDF he was not
shot, shot by the Palestinian side, shot but not killed, and someone else
was shot. Or something.

I'm inclined to think that Occam's razor is applicable here. It's not as
though the IDF hasn't shot Palestinian children on other occasions (
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/11/israeli-troops-accused-
children-gaza ).

 

Ah. Statute of limitations kicks in then, does it?

 

You have a *serious* persecution complex, you know that?

Don't see why. Your knowledge of TwenCen history isn't good. Cf: "The
RAF should have bombed the railway lines to the death camps, "France
was outnumbered which is why it lost in 1940," and other gems.

I recognised the highly elliptical reference to bombing the US Nayvy
instantly. You didn't. OK, so you know about the Liberty, fine, my
error, but you missed the original gag, and after that, we were indeed
at X-purposes.


 I believe that this comes from a change in your attitude:

If you choose to believe that.

Digital compact cameras, eh?

 

That is absolutely wrong on both counts. But your rabid "Israel can do
no wrong," fanaticism has blinded you to any rational objective view
of the truth.

 

Only a fuckwit would believe that.

 

I don't "assume the Jews did it"; I think it's most likely that the IDF
did it.

There will always be confusion, not least because parties to any conflict
engage in deliberate revisionism. The Israeli state and its supporters
are particularly energetic in this. We're grown-ups, we know this as well
as we know that the right is not often all on one side. But if you
exclusively and agressively parrot the most extreme positions of one
side, all you do is identify yourself as too partisan to be taken
seriously.

 

Yeah, sure. You quote a politician making a political statement and
ignore historical reality. Typical.

 

I figured you were just too embarrassed to admit that the people who
lived in Palestine for the last few thousand years are, in fact,
Palestinians, and I was going to let you slide on it.

 

You are the only person talking about "the Jews" above. You don't speak
for Jews, or Israelis. You appear to identify with a particular fairly
hard-line zionist position, which isn't exclusively Jewish; you have some
allies in the American (and elsewhere) Christian right. And you have some
political opponents in Israel.

No, it's OK to defend a position vigorously. I'm looking for some
evidence that you are looking for connections with the other side to
bring about an end to the conflict. That's what makes the difference
between being part of the problem and being part of the solution. It's
not a sufficient condition, because it's only too easy to pretend, but
it's a neccesary first step, which I don't think you've taken yet.

 

You really should see someone about that persecution complex. I've had
too many Jewish lovers to not like them.

You could ask those same questions about native Americans and get the
same answers. And asking them would be just as foolish.

 

Compare and contrast:

All Israelis are Jews - all Jews are Israeli.

or

All of the IDF are Jews - all Jews are in the IDF.