What if?

Let's say you could take the best of the best from the modern GP era and
transport them from when they were in their prime to now. How would they
finish? eg in a race or season like this on today's 4 strokes.

Doohan - Honda
Lawson - Honda
Gardner - Honda
Criville - Honda
Rossi - Yamaha
Rainey - Yamaha
Kenny Roberts - Yamaha
Schwantz - Give him a Yamaha as well so he's not completely handicapped

This was prompted by an MCN article where Rainey, Doohan, Schwantz were
debating Rossi and where he would finish against them.

 

Julian Bond wrote:

???????????

 

Yeah. Funny that. Mick Doohan said that if Mick, Wayne, Kevin and Alex
were out on track with Vale, Vale would come in 5th or maybe 4th after
Catalunya. So Mick Doohan at least now rates Alex Criville as the only
guy who could push him and occasionally beat him in the second half of
Mick's GP500 reign. Wayne and Kevin were a bit more circumspect but all
of them reckoned Vale wasn't as good as they used to be. "The older I
get, the faster I was".

 

Spencer's missing.

My favorite is Lawson. He methodically turned every thing he rode into
something better.

Rossi probably eventually will get rated the highest, but compared to these
guys he's never had to ride the type of evil bike these guys had to tame a
few times in their careers, he's come around in a more civilized era - it
is somewhat unfair to hold it against him, but I do think that would give
the other guys the mental edge.

Thus:

(1) Lawson
(2) Rainey
(3) Roberts

Gardner falls, as does Schwantz. Doohan and Spencer battle for fourth. I
will complain about Sheene not having been invited, because on a good bike
he's beat 'em. Rossi has a blast following these guys.

....pablo

 

Like I said elsewhere in this thread, it was Mick Doohan who included
Criville, not me. Put Rainey, Schwantz and Doohan in a bar with a
journalist and ask them if Rossi would have beaten them and they'll all
say no. Only Doohan piped up and said Criville would have beaten Rossi
too. Now either Doohan is winding everybody up (not at all unlikely) or
he remembers the Criville who spent one season right on his tail and
occasionally beating him. Not the Criville who won a championship by
default and then lost his way.

Pretty much my thoughts too. The one I find really hard to place is
Kenny Roberts. He won just about everything he ever entered on a really
wide collection of machinery. And most of the bikes he did it on were
*evil*.

Most of those guys had 4 stroke experience and Mick made the point that
they'd all raced in the Suzuka 8 hours so I think they would have had no
problem with current MotoGP. They all also said that the current bikes
looked easy and forgiving to race compared with what they were on. I
think we forget just how nasty the two strokes were in the late 80s and
early 90s. Let alone the first TZ700s, the 650 Suzuki Square 4, or
further back the TR750 and KR750.

 

But are these guys really the best ever?
If I had to choose the best 4 motorbike world championships riders ever,
they would be:
Duke, Surtees, Mike the bike and Ago.
They all emerged from a much more competitive scene than the '80s-'90s one.
Those 4 guys would have easily lapped all those yankee/aussie guys.
It's the genetic supieriority of the European cream compared to nations
born out of convicts and refugees.

 

What do you call modern era, post war or Roberts and subsequent?
Hailwood won championships on motorcycles that would terrify some
pretty good riders. Oh yeah, and ten years after he retired he won the
Isle of Mann TT, on a private entry, against works bikes.

I can't believe you left Spencer off the list. In his prime he was
brilliant and probably never intellectually understood why he was so
fast. When the magic deserted him he didn't know how to get it back,
sort of like a batting slump that never ends.

What's Creville doing on this list?

Doohan was the best of his time on the best equipment, a work ethic
only exceeded by Roberts, and a heroic tolerance for pain.

Lawson and Rainey were the workmanlike champions, no slouches,
certainly, but no spectacular brilliance either. Both were greatly
influenced by Roberts.

Gardner had occasional flashes of something extra.

Rossi's potential is monumental and is just beginning to show itself.
Will he be another Spencer, or go to F1 and be another Surtees, it's
too soon to tell. A lot depends on what goals he sets for himself.
Leaving the best equipment in the form of Honda behind, to make a
point, indicates his carreer may be spoiled because he tripped over
his ego.

If I had to put money on this race, I'd bet on Roberts. No one has
ever worked harder at it or understood more about it (and could
explain it all in detail) than him. He has a sizable ego, to be sure,
but he never let anything interfere the best that could be done. He
won the last race of his carreer and knew it was time to quit.

Let the flames begin.

Bill Smith

 

"a much more competitive scene "
Tosi, get real!!! No doubt they dominated during their time, however, they
would be the first to tell you they would be in slow motion compared to
today's riders. This, right now today, IS the more competitive time!! Savor
it!!!
I believe the four strokes are much easier to ride but the competition today
is way closer (better) than in many years, if ever, in all venues... My only
wish would be that the above named were active today in their prime, talk
about a fight....

T3

 

Actually, very good point. Add Angel Nieto to the mix.

Hm.

At the end of the day, cross era comparisons are impossible in any sport -
it merely depends who gets beamed into which era, and they'll be
disoriented. Who knows. They're all All Time Greats.

....pablo

 

Duke certainly belongs on the list. Surtees didn't stay long enough,
but having won a F1champoinship puts him in a class by himself.
Hailwood has to be on any list of the best, certainly in the top 5.
Agostini, when he first went to MV, didn't really have much in the way
of competition in all those championships he won, but he certainly won
eveything he was supposed to.

Not so. competition has only increased with more factories involved
and more and better talent being thrown at it.

ROTFLMAO!

Bill Smith

 

Post Roberts. Which I guess means post Agostini.

He had 3 great years and then went to pieces. For a brief time he was on
of the world.

Again. It was Mick Doohan who suggested it. This all started with
Rainey, Doohan, Schwantz. I just widened it a bit. If you're going to
have those three you have to include Lawson. If you include Lawson you
have to include Kenny Snr. If you stop there you've got people who all
would find today's racing recognisable. Slicks, knee down, full face
helmets. Almost all of these people raced 4 strokes at some time in
their career as well as GP two strokes. So I find it all a little easier
to compare them. Schwantz on the Suzuki GSXR750 racing at Donington has
at least some similarity with Rossi on an RCV. But apart from Hailwood's
IoM comeback or Agostini's Daytona win I've got nothing to compare
people further back with riders of the last 20 years except heresay.

The race that really sticks in my mind was Hockenheim when Schwantz won
the race on the last lap, late braking move into the stadium. This was
when Rainey and Schwantz were at the height of their ability and Doohan
was still starting but was really close to them. Pretty sure Lawson was
there too. I don't find it hard to imagine Rossi being in that dog fight
and I can't choose between any of them. Probably Rossi and Schwantz
would have had each other off and Rainey, Lawson and Doohan would have
been on the podium in that order.

 

Is there a url?


--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at

Thanks, robots.

 

Hailwood went to the Isle of Man after years of not riding and won on a
private Ducati, then did it again on a 2-stroke GP bike. That says it all,
does it not?

As to genetic superiority - bigotry.
--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at

Thanks, robots.

 

Oh, and by the way,where is Cal Rayborn? Ask KR sometime who he thought was
the best? I have and that's what he told me. He was the first guy KR ever
saw do a stopie, at Daytona no less. O'Brien warned him about going "down
under" and riding some POS... Cost him all...


T3

 

It might turn up here eventually. But it was only in the paper edition
today so probably won't make the website for a week, if ever.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/nav?page=motorcyclenews.home

 

Mike Hailwood =LEGEND. Never forget he had retired from racing for a while.
His ability to adapt -amazing.

 

Quite an hazardous statement, since Vale hasn't crashed out of a race in
years. Usually he puts enough pressure on his opponents to have them
falling off the race, but he's seldom a victim of the same strategy and the
last time was a few years ago.

 

Ago proved that he was the real deal when he left MV to win again riding a
Yamaha and defeating his former bike in the hands of another real top
rider, Phil Read.

Please check the bikes and riders that did take part in the 1954 500 World
Championship. So much competition was never seen before or after.

But my point was something slightly different. Nowadays to have one of the
best rides, you just need to fit the features required by some sponsor (see
Barros on factory Honda, for instance). Back in those days, the ride was
really important as well, but to get the best one you really had to show
all your skills, to prove that you were fit for that ride beforehand. You
had to win a lot of other non World Championship races, on terribly
dangerous street circuits, often with bikes different from the one they
rode on the WC.

 

I tought we were talking about World Championship riders.
If not, the first on the list would be the legendary "black devil" Tenni,
the first non-brit to win at the TT, to despoil the cockney racing temple.
A man so though that many times he kept on racing while bleeding or with
some missing toes. So devoted to racing that he consciously kept on doing
it until the day of his death. He couldn't have imagined a possible
different end to his life.

 

In Faster, Doohan said Schwantz was the fastest rider he's ever raced
against.