Why are we still alive

People seemed to get muddled with the pushing and pulling.

 

Not me! (I use my left hand for pushing)

 

So now all can let fly with "just what is Clem doing with his right hand
when riding (or maybe all the time)!
I'll start with .... holding Hawaiiaiaiaan shirt shut to keep bugs out.
MikeH
(Wrong again)

 

.. in another thread Johno quoting Gerry saying -

Thus - Newton's 4th law (if he'd lived a bit longer) - the true course of a
poster is never altered by their occasional deviant tendency ...

 

Your "theory" is so far totally without foundation, given that the
"fuckface" comment was posted two and a bit hours _before_ the "have a
happy saturday night" comment and a full three hours before the
"assimilated" comment.

That your theory will in time be proven to be right is merely a matter
of pure luck on your part, and certainly not anything to do with you
having made any valid scientific observations.

Do many people describe you as anal retentive, Andrew, or is it just
me?

=================

Onya bike

Gerry

 

So I'm curious here. 80-90% of my steering input goes into the left
grip (push and pull depending on outcome required) so I can keep my
throttle hand smooth. Am I the only one doing it this way ? Does
everyone else push left and push right (as implied above) ?

JL

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:16:27 -0700 (PDT)

No, I do that too, but I'm a well known slow woos of a rider, so
maybe you should push/push...

Zebee

 

Errm I don't think you can reach that conclusion yet. I'm reasonably
quick (there is of course always someone faster ;-) ) and I would
actually attribute at least some of that to the left hand dominant
style - I get on and off the throttle smoothly (which is proveable by
the fact I got a lot better tyre mileage and chain mileage than others
on the same bike even though quicker than them - tests done on the TRX
against other TRX riders !

Mostly curious to see how many others do which method

JL

 

That surprises me - all the old R series beemers seem to have a "sit
up and beg" riding position - I wouldn't have thought you would have
ANY weight on the bars

JL

 

If you're doing 80-90% through the left bar then you must be doing the
rest through the right bar concurrently, as in split load.
I saw/read somewhere the rider can push or pull but only through one
side at a time. Splitting the effort to both bars at the same time (push
and pull concurrently) is bad. Lessens control if both hands are doing
steering effort at same time. Can't remember where I saw it but got me
wondering.
MikeH

 

I'm afraid I'm in the left hand dominant camp and I push and pull in
most corners. I'm also reasonably quick (yes there's always someone
faster ;-) and I attribute my smooth classic lines to that method.

I can (and do) use right hand push but normally it's restricted to
quicker changes of line where the high speed during the direction change
is a factor (say during Hayshed at Phillip Island) and extra force (and
less throttle change) is what's needed.


G-S

 

The R100RS leaves my back sitting at 30 degrees to vertical but I have a
long torso and short arms which tends to exagerate the effect.


G-S

 

So you reckon the force is a moment rather than a vecta? But it is more the
resultant action that cums about from multiple vectas and not the moment
force! u no it makes sense?

 

My perception is that I do 100% of the input through the left bar 90+%
of the time(1), but I would be hesitant to say that it really is 100%
given that your right hand is naturally following the movement.

Would you prefer it if I said my conscious gross input is through the
left ?

JL
1 Noting GS well observed occasional exceptions

 

Actually the more I think about that the more I think I need to call
bollocks. It's only going to be true where either the actions aren't
linked or consistent.

Let's reduce it down.
example 1:
If you have a large bar attached to a large nut you wish to undo with
an equal length of bar either side of it of say 50 cm (total length of
bar 1m running across the top as in a t-bar socket).

By the logic proposed above you will be able to exert more controlled
force with one hand (yes I know you only said control, bear with me)
which is patently not true. So then do you have less control, in this
example the level of control required is relatively small hence you
clearly have enough control to apply sufficient force and then stop
applying force when it's loosened. Two hands clearly allowing both
maximum force and appropriate / sufficient control.

Now example two

Similar length piece of metal (1m) attached to a turning point with a
stop at the extremes of it's ability to turn allowing a maximum turn
of say 100 degrees in either rotation. There is a level of resistance
to the turning moment. The person is located beside & above the centre
rotation point bent forward at the waist to reach both ends.

Now can you apply more force with one hand or two ?

Clearly two because the rotation of the metal bar is consistent with
the movement of your body that is twisting it clockwise is done by
moving your arms and rotating your torso. Now as your body is
swivelling at the waist the pairs of muscles in your back and abdomen
tighten and loosen in pairs while your arms retract and extend
simultaneously.

So where does the control of the amount of force applied come from -
clearly by slowing or speeding up the contraction of muscles, and
slowing the extension of muscles by countering contractions. These
muscles operate in pairs on a daily basis in any fit / average person
in modern society. The pairing of these muscles is wired into your
brain so that unconscious " don't rotate so fast" is translated into
muscle actions. Very normal stuff.

Clearly in this instance having two arms moving together has no
negative outcome.

On the other hand if you were trying to do some equivalent of the old
"rub your head and tummy at the same time in opposite directions"
party trick then yes absolutely - the brain has difficult processing
different types of requests simultaneously as we can't really
multitask.

The problem here is

1. A steering input to tip in is actually a quite gross motor skill -
it doesn't actually require a huge amount of precision. As tested and
documented by Keith Code you basically get the thing sufficiently
tipped over as quickly as possible which means rapidly apply a fair
bit of force then stop. One hand on most men (and probably most women)
is more then sufficient for fast road riding (1) - you really don't
need more than a single hand to apply and control the force applied

2. Your other hand is naturally following the movement, and your torso
muscles are naturally doing the swivelling moment. How much your legs
and torso are involved is directly related to how quick you are (2).
It is therefore pretty near impossible to tell how much force the
"following" hand is imparting. The only way you could be doing a
literal 100% control by one hand is if you aren't turning it in
"optimally" (3)

JL
1 noting in racing circles where elite riders have literally broken
off handlebars due to the force applied)
2 That's Keith Code's / Steve Brouggy's opinion but one which I
wholeheartedly agree with, also noted in passing in the alternate
riding school I attended with instructors like Shawn Giles and Kevin
Magee (wording is a bit different though)
3.Optimally as defined in 2

 

So I'm curious here. 80-90% of my steering input goes into the left
grip (push and pull depending on outcome required) so I can keep my
throttle hand smooth. Am I the only one doing it this way ? Does
everyone else push left and push right (as implied above) ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Can't say I've really paid attention but the only times I remember pulling
the 'bars is when I'm really tossing the bike side-to-side at lowish speeds
(ie. up steep switchbacks or dodging traffic cones).
The rest of the time I'm sure it's push-push. (With the exception being the
time I rode a Dyna-Glide and I was pulling to stop myself being blown off
the back by the wind force.

 

Isn't there a difference in riding style between right hand drive and
left hand countries in respect to many of the counter steering comments
mentioned here ?

I would expect right hand dominance in right hand drive countries and
the opposite in left hand drive countries.

I'm not mentioning anything other than counter steering, but I'm sure
there are others differences too between them also !

Bill

 

Mate, u have verbal diarrhoea.

R u outta ur depths?

 

how and why?

 

Interesting, why do you say that ? The throttle remains under the
right hand regardless of which side of the road you're on.

JL
(OK unless you're riding something very old and obscure or you've
specifically modified it)