Why are we still alive

Discussion in 'Australian Motorcycles' started by F Murtz, Apr 16, 2009.

  1. F Murtz

    F Murtz Guest

    People seemed to get muddled with the pushing and pulling.
     
    F Murtz, Apr 18, 2009
    #21
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  2. F Murtz

    Knobdoodle Guest

    Not me! (I use my left hand for pushing)
     
    Knobdoodle, Apr 18, 2009
    #22
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  3. F Murtz

    MikeH Guest

    So now all can let fly with "just what is Clem doing with his right hand
    when riding (or maybe all the time)!
    I'll start with .... holding Hawaiiaiaiaan shirt shut to keep bugs out.
    MikeH
    (Wrong again)
     
    MikeH, Apr 18, 2009
    #23
  4. F Murtz

    Andrew Price Guest

    .. in another thread Johno quoting Gerry saying -

    Thus - Newton's 4th law (if he'd lived a bit longer) - the true course of a
    poster is never altered by their occasional deviant tendency ...
     
    Andrew Price, Apr 19, 2009
    #24
  5. F Murtz

    Diogenes Guest

    Your "theory" is so far totally without foundation, given that the
    "fuckface" comment was posted two and a bit hours _before_ the "have a
    happy saturday night" comment and a full three hours before the
    "assimilated" comment.

    That your theory will in time be proven to be right is merely a matter
    of pure luck on your part, and certainly not anything to do with you
    having made any valid scientific observations.

    Do many people describe you as anal retentive, Andrew, or is it just
    me?

    =================

    Onya bike

    Gerry
     
    Diogenes, Apr 19, 2009
    #25
  6. F Murtz

    JL Guest

    So I'm curious here. 80-90% of my steering input goes into the left
    grip (push and pull depending on outcome required) so I can keep my
    throttle hand smooth. Am I the only one doing it this way ? Does
    everyone else push left and push right (as implied above) ?

    JL
     
    JL, Apr 19, 2009
    #26
  7. In aus.motorcycles on Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
    No, I do that too, but I'm a well known slow woos of a rider, so
    maybe you should push/push...

    Zebee
     
    Zebee Johnstone, Apr 19, 2009
    #27
  8. F Murtz

    JL Guest

    Errm I don't think you can reach that conclusion yet. I'm reasonably
    quick (there is of course always someone faster ;-) ) and I would
    actually attribute at least some of that to the left hand dominant
    style - I get on and off the throttle smoothly (which is proveable by
    the fact I got a lot better tyre mileage and chain mileage than others
    on the same bike even though quicker than them - tests done on the TRX
    against other TRX riders ! :)

    Mostly curious to see how many others do which method

    JL
     
    JL, Apr 19, 2009
    #28
  9. F Murtz

    JL Guest

    That surprises me - all the old R series beemers seem to have a "sit
    up and beg" riding position - I wouldn't have thought you would have
    ANY weight on the bars
    JL
     
    JL, Apr 19, 2009
    #29
  10. F Murtz

    MikeH Guest

    If you're doing 80-90% through the left bar then you must be doing the
    rest through the right bar concurrently, as in split load.
    I saw/read somewhere the rider can push or pull but only through one
    side at a time. Splitting the effort to both bars at the same time (push
    and pull concurrently) is bad. Lessens control if both hands are doing
    steering effort at same time. Can't remember where I saw it but got me
    wondering.
    MikeH
     
    MikeH, Apr 19, 2009
    #30
  11. F Murtz

    G-S Guest

    I'm afraid I'm in the left hand dominant camp and I push and pull in
    most corners. I'm also reasonably quick (yes there's always someone
    faster ;-) and I attribute my smooth classic lines to that method.

    I can (and do) use right hand push but normally it's restricted to
    quicker changes of line where the high speed during the direction change
    is a factor (say during Hayshed at Phillip Island) and extra force (and
    less throttle change) is what's needed.


    G-S
     
    G-S, Apr 19, 2009
    #31
  12. F Murtz

    G-S Guest

    The R100RS leaves my back sitting at 30 degrees to vertical but I have a
    long torso and short arms which tends to exagerate the effect.


    G-S
     
    G-S, Apr 19, 2009
    #32
  13. F Murtz

    x.x Guest

    So you reckon the force is a moment rather than a vecta? But it is more the
    resultant action that cums about from multiple vectas and not the moment
    force! u no it makes sense?
     
    x.x, Apr 19, 2009
    #33
  14. F Murtz

    JL Guest

    My perception is that I do 100% of the input through the left bar 90+%
    of the time(1), but I would be hesitant to say that it really is 100%
    given that your right hand is naturally following the movement.

    Would you prefer it if I said my conscious gross input is through the
    left ?

    JL
    1 Noting GS well observed occasional exceptions
     
    JL, Apr 19, 2009
    #34
  15. F Murtz

    JL Guest

    Actually the more I think about that the more I think I need to call
    bollocks. It's only going to be true where either the actions aren't
    linked or consistent.

    Let's reduce it down.
    example 1:
    If you have a large bar attached to a large nut you wish to undo with
    an equal length of bar either side of it of say 50 cm (total length of
    bar 1m running across the top as in a t-bar socket).

    By the logic proposed above you will be able to exert more controlled
    force with one hand (yes I know you only said control, bear with me)
    which is patently not true. So then do you have less control, in this
    example the level of control required is relatively small hence you
    clearly have enough control to apply sufficient force and then stop
    applying force when it's loosened. Two hands clearly allowing both
    maximum force and appropriate / sufficient control.

    Now example two

    Similar length piece of metal (1m) attached to a turning point with a
    stop at the extremes of it's ability to turn allowing a maximum turn
    of say 100 degrees in either rotation. There is a level of resistance
    to the turning moment. The person is located beside & above the centre
    rotation point bent forward at the waist to reach both ends.

    Now can you apply more force with one hand or two ?

    Clearly two because the rotation of the metal bar is consistent with
    the movement of your body that is twisting it clockwise is done by
    moving your arms and rotating your torso. Now as your body is
    swivelling at the waist the pairs of muscles in your back and abdomen
    tighten and loosen in pairs while your arms retract and extend
    simultaneously.

    So where does the control of the amount of force applied come from -
    clearly by slowing or speeding up the contraction of muscles, and
    slowing the extension of muscles by countering contractions. These
    muscles operate in pairs on a daily basis in any fit / average person
    in modern society. The pairing of these muscles is wired into your
    brain so that unconscious " don't rotate so fast" is translated into
    muscle actions. Very normal stuff.

    Clearly in this instance having two arms moving together has no
    negative outcome.

    On the other hand if you were trying to do some equivalent of the old
    "rub your head and tummy at the same time in opposite directions"
    party trick then yes absolutely - the brain has difficult processing
    different types of requests simultaneously as we can't really
    multitask.

    The problem here is

    1. A steering input to tip in is actually a quite gross motor skill -
    it doesn't actually require a huge amount of precision. As tested and
    documented by Keith Code you basically get the thing sufficiently
    tipped over as quickly as possible which means rapidly apply a fair
    bit of force then stop. One hand on most men (and probably most women)
    is more then sufficient for fast road riding (1) - you really don't
    need more than a single hand to apply and control the force applied

    2. Your other hand is naturally following the movement, and your torso
    muscles are naturally doing the swivelling moment. How much your legs
    and torso are involved is directly related to how quick you are (2).
    It is therefore pretty near impossible to tell how much force the
    "following" hand is imparting. The only way you could be doing a
    literal 100% control by one hand is if you aren't turning it in
    "optimally" (3)

    JL
    1 noting in racing circles where elite riders have literally broken
    off handlebars due to the force applied)
    2 That's Keith Code's / Steve Brouggy's opinion but one which I
    wholeheartedly agree with, also noted in passing in the alternate
    riding school I attended with instructors like Shawn Giles and Kevin
    Magee (wording is a bit different though)
    3.Optimally as defined in 2
     
    JL, Apr 19, 2009
    #35
  16. F Murtz

    Knobdoodle Guest

    So I'm curious here. 80-90% of my steering input goes into the left
    grip (push and pull depending on outcome required) so I can keep my
    throttle hand smooth. Am I the only one doing it this way ? Does
    everyone else push left and push right (as implied above) ?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Can't say I've really paid attention but the only times I remember pulling
    the 'bars is when I'm really tossing the bike side-to-side at lowish speeds
    (ie. up steep switchbacks or dodging traffic cones).
    The rest of the time I'm sure it's push-push. (With the exception being the
    time I rode a Dyna-Glide and I was pulling to stop myself being blown off
    the back by the wind force.
     
    Knobdoodle, Apr 19, 2009
    #36
  17. F Murtz

    BTB Guest

    Isn't there a difference in riding style between right hand drive and
    left hand countries in respect to many of the counter steering comments
    mentioned here ?

    I would expect right hand dominance in right hand drive countries and
    the opposite in left hand drive countries.

    I'm not mentioning anything other than counter steering, but I'm sure
    there are others differences too between them also !

    Bill
     
    BTB, Apr 19, 2009
    #37
  18. F Murtz

    x.x Guest

    Mate, u have verbal diarrhoea.

    R u outta ur depths?
     
    x.x, Apr 19, 2009
    #38
  19. F Murtz

    x.x Guest

    how and why?
     
    x.x, Apr 19, 2009
    #39
  20. F Murtz

    JL Guest

    Interesting, why do you say that ? The throttle remains under the
    right hand regardless of which side of the road you're on.

    JL
    (OK unless you're riding something very old and obscure or you've
    specifically modified it)
     
    JL, Apr 19, 2009
    #40
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