Why are we still alive

That would be the coriolis effect you're thinking of (and why side
cars are usually on the other side in the northern hemisphere).

HTH,

Bill_h

 

I'm not going to disagree with what your saying.... I think.
I said I read/saw it somewhere, and it did entice me to think about it
next run. I found I was actually pushing/pulling both ends somewhat at
the same time and started to consciously make the push/pull at one end
only whilst only stabilizing the other. I think I can see where its
going in regard to feel and sensitivity to too little/too much turn.

In relation to your scenarios, can we discount any turning efforts where
more than the strength on one arm is required otherwise the answer is
obvious. If it is required, either the rider involves both arms or may
be in deep shit. Let's assume we're not talking bar breaking efforts on
track but more everyday road riding.

I did say "lessens control" and I wasn't talking sheer torque factors.
If you correlate the test to a bar then lets say your test can be
achieved with one side of the bar only or both and strength is not the
issue but control only.

What are some things we really do where the choice is one hand or two?
How about backing the boat down the boat ramp? One hand or two?

Your end points, of tipping in with the one hand and your other hand is
naturally following the movement, I suggest is in line with what I was
relating but you raise the point that the following hand is probably
assisting or countering the effort of the main hand in order to follow
or control. How much effect is the following hand having over the
turning effort.... hmmmmm.

You suggest an imprecise/gross motor effort to turn the bars which makes
me think you're talking about max track cornering? Get it over as far
and as fast as possible and hope your entry speed is correct. I'd
suggest a different outlook for road riding because it's not max tilt on
every corner but more varied from minor and never max tilt?

I'd have to distinguish the push/pull function from the
control/stabilize function.

I would be interested to know whether push or pull has better effect
too. A rider in upright position accelerating through a corner should
have more inertia pulling on their arms than a rider leaning very
forward on a track bike.

MikeH

 

All this pushing and pulling I just think right and it goes right think
left and that is where it goes

 

Fair enough.

Never owned a boat, but backing a horse float I'd do one handed
because I'd be twisted around to look through the rear window, can't
think that 1 vs 2 makes much difference though - if I'm punting a cage
hard I use both hands. If I'm going slow I'm indifferent between 1 vs
2 but that's because the quantity and speed and precision of the
inputs is small/low.

Having said that, I'm not sure that works because that's a far higher
degree of precision/ dexterity tipping a bike even at gentle speed is
push/pull until sufficient lean angle then stop, in most cases the
speed of the tip in will be the same, just the duration of push
differs.

If anything I'd suggest it could well be the fine tuning control
whereas the left is the gross - that would be consistent with my
impression the bulk is done by the left.

Errm yes and no. Have you done superbikeschool ? The object is to get
to the correct lean angle as instantly as possible - that could be a
couple of degrees or a lot of degrees, and you certainly don't "hope
your entry speed is correct" - the amount of lean angle depends on the
entry speed and vice versa - choose the correct combo. More entry
speed more angle. But don't piss around getting it leant over, get it
to the right angle asap (which on the road may only require a quick
twitch of the bars)

Mmm but it's the same movement - it's not two seperate ones.

Not sure I'm following your point here - would you care to explain ?

JL

 

The way a racing friend cleared this up for me years ago is that you
push on the inside bar of the way you want to turn. Push left-go
left, push right-go right. to push the bar you simply lean into the
corner and put your body weight onto the inside bar. If you are
pulling on the outside bar to initiate a turn, you are pulling your
body up and away from the bike making the bike lean more than it needs
too (dirt rider style).

So a one handed push does it on a solo(the opposite hand is just
neutral, not pulling at all), I do a lot of pulling on the sidecar
however as one hand isn't enough to get mine to turn.

Al

 

I do both, with both hands.

Theo

 

Interesting, You've read somewhere that using both hands lessens
control? I'd like to read that.

Theo

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:01:41 -0700 (PDT)

I wonder if this is a version of Keith Code's thing about needing to
brace yourself for steering inputs?

That you can't push or pull without giving your muscles a steady
platform to brace against. He does it by pushing your opposite foot
against the peg. I can see someone thinking that if you use both
hands you are twisting your torso and/or can't brace said torso to
anchor both arms.

I do find countersteering easier if I'm pushing with one hand and the
opposite leg. The pulling bit is harder to brace, and I'd have to go
and try it on a corner needing strong input to see what I do about
that.

Zebee

 

12 hrs and still nothing from Clem...

Nev..
'07 XB12X
'08 DL1000K8

 

I already did the left hand for pushing (right hand for.....) just 24hrs ago
Nev.
Don't like to repeat too early.

 

^^^

Wot 'e said. I'd love to hear the theory behind that . . .

 

I thought of a similarity.... golf swing. Ermmmm no, let's skip that one.

My phrase "hope your entry speed is correct" is used as, I thought, a
light hearted turn of phrase simply put as "you'd bloody well hope
everything is correct as you're maxing out through a corner". I think
you condemn my use of the phrase in meaning don't really give a toss.

No, I haven't done SB schooling else I probably wouldn't be entertaining
this thread. Like you, I'd have a greater grasp on the intricacies of
track riding and extending that to road riding.

Re the final push or pull question, I was baiting the experts as to "is
counter steering by pulling, versus the commonly stated pushing, a no
no?" I ride an upright position and when accelerating out a corner can
notice that I'm pulling the outer bar more so than pushing the inner
bar. This is aggravated by the inertia of the acceleration makes it easy
to pull back than push forward. To actually push the inner bar, against
the acceleration forces, I find I have to lean more forward or grip the
tank with knees for leverage. Merely a trailing question and I'm still
interested.

So is "pull the outer bar" counter steering frowned upon versus the
constantly preached "push the inner"?

MikeH
(I'll be the idiot on Mt Nebo/Glorious on Friday taking notes through
corners.)

 

And you reckon I'm not trying to remember where I saw it. Then the full
text might clarify things.

MikeH

 

A question...
Do you deliver the torsional force to bars through both ends, push and
pull concurrently, or only one end?

As highlighted earlier, I'm delineating the sheer torsional force factor
away from the control or fine tune factor, as I believe the text indicated.

MikeH

 

OK we didn't get a huge response but it seems to be a 50/50 split
(irony unintentional)

Left hand primary - JL Zebee GS
Push either side - theo moike
Unspecified but implied push either side Mike H and Paul H
Telekinesis - F Murtz

JL

 

Apologies, I missed two responses which makes the push / push the
dominant style

Knobdoodle and Al P are push / push

So (from a non statistically significant sample) we seem to have the
classic push / push style as the preferred option 2/3 to 1/3

Well there ya go

JL
If anyone else wants to chime in feel free

 

JL wrote:

Gee thanks, John!

I read your previous posting and was planning to answer, after I had
thought about it, and done some testing on the bike.

I know that this contradicts the basic concepts of usenet, but <shrug>
it made sense to me.

My limited testing established that I normally steer with push/push.

Steering with pull/pull, of course, works, but leaves me with an odd
feeling of losing attachment to the bike, since the natural reaction on
the body of a hand pulling something towards it is for it to tend to
move towards the original pull. This tendency makes it feel that I am
unbalanced on the bike.

regards,
CrazyCam

 

Errmm I don't think doing SBschool makes me a guru - I'm just a bit
more conscious of some bits because it was explicitly discussed.

Well I don't think we have any experts on here currently (since Daron
went awol),however we do have a lot of people with a lot of years
riding experience (consistent with the fact that the average ausmotian
REGULAR POSTER(1) is an overweight, middle aged (in the most generous
sense of the phrase)(2) bloke with a couple of decades riding
experience. I can only pass on what I've been told by experts (and
read).

I don't think there really is a right and wrong in this one - as long
as it allows functional control - there might be an optimal and
suboptimal though.

I'd suggest a right hand primary would probably be suboptimal.
Although as a training exercise (and to help keep my speed down) I
habitually do the Old Pacific Hwy run (Berowra to the T intersection)
one handed with the other hand on the tank - because the speed limit
is so low compared to what you can take those corners at, it forces
you to concentrate on smooth throttle control during your steering
inputs.

My *opinion* is that if you're going slowly there's absolutely no
difference between the two - a brief light push on the right versus a
gentle pull on the left to drop into a corner at 2/10ths <shrug> I
can't imagine it making any difference - you're probably barely adding
throttle to maintain your road speed anyway. On the other hand I think
that if you're riding at fast road speeds on our typically bumpy roads
that there is an advantage to keeping the right hand focussed on
throttle control.

I'm certainly in no position to claim that is *right* though. And I
don't really have much access to the experts.

I also don't know whether that is still true on the track because I
only do the occasional trackday.

Why are you still pulling the bike down if you're accelerating out of
the corner ? If you're getting on the gas you should be in the process
of standing it up to get it onto the meaty part of the tyre for grip
(or am I missing your point?)

Buy a copy of "twist of the wrist 2" for some good cornering tuition
or go do SBK school, but the process should be (correct me someone if
I miss a step I'm not conscious of them anymore)

1. Look - determine line radius etc
2. Setup - brake to the right speed, get yourself in the right spot on
the road (outside edge of the lane), get off the throttle before
braking (if you're not a racer)
3. Tip in to the correct angle
4. Gently start adding throttle as soon as you're finished tipping in
(side of your tyre is a smaller diameter so you lose speed - it also
keeps the weight right)
5. After the apex you start standing it up and you can apply more
throttle as you stand it up, by the exit you can have the taps fully
open if HP and speed limit allows

Well generally speaking yes you want your weight forward to weight up
the front tyre for grip if you're punting hard you also need your body
in a position where you can apply input smoothly.

<pedant> Strictly speaking it's not "inertia of acceleration" it's
just inertia and the acceleration of the bike is counteracting that
inertia </pedant mode>

It sounds to me like you're grabbing a fistful of throttle and are
then having trouble holding on which suggests you do need to alter
your riding position so your legs are bracing your position and not
your arms. You don't want to be holding yourself on with the bars it
disrupts the bike and makes it hard to give good inputs. SB school
again do a "chicken dance" exercise where they force you to move your
arms around to prove your not weighting them up - at any point in time
you should be able to take your hands off the bars without face
planting the tank.

Push/ push would be the conventional wisdom by the look of the voting
so far

Good idea as long as you can tell which are the fast ones doing it
well, and which are the squids who are only fast in a straight
line

JL


JL
1 As opposed to the lurkers and occasional posters who are I'm sure
fit athletic good looking and young - which is why they're rarely on
here -too busy having lives and shagging supermodels and such
2 You are all planning to live to 120 aren't you ?

 

Ahhh come on, I was trying to be encouraging !! <note to self must
work on people skills>

<gasp !> You did what ! You established the facts before posting ? You

That's a good point

Did you mean push/pull on the left only , or did you really test
pull / pull ?

Did you consider the point Zebee raised about leg bracing when you did
the test ?

JL

 

Que?

I took push/push to mean push on left bar to go left, push on right bar
to go right.

Conversely, pull/pull, pull on right bar to go left, pull on left bar to
go right.

I couldn't manage to think quickly enough to push left bar _and_ pull
right bar, at the same time, and have any confidence about how much turn
/lean I would get.

Not actually while doing the testing, although I think I do actually
brace left hand push to right foot weight, which doesn't really
translate for a pulling action, except for those of us with feet
forwards bikes.

Maybe FF bikes with ape hangers need to be ridden with pull/pull?

regards,
CrazyCam