Why is it?

I think it's about dealer service. Honda wants you to take the machine
to a factory service rep for all maintenance. Then they can charge you
an arm and a leg to do the slightest work.

 

Not really, no.

 

Yes, really.

 

Not unknown as a motivation, but sometimes it can simply be a culture of
over-complexity in the design stage as people try to keep their jobs by
appearing busy. Such doodles often end up on the production line -
Citroen underbonnet was a classic example, as were Japanese wiring
looms.

 

Well, yeah, I was gunna say, like. "Not examined" should have been the
phrase. I realise that they're constrained to a comapratively narrow
choice of preset phrases these days, but you'd think that 'examined'
would be in there.

Well done on the green sheet, thoughbut.

 

It's not bright to suggest that a bike is built purely to keep the
after-sales department busy (although the Brits almost made it an art
form).

There are more likely explanations, like speeding up the process on the
production line, for a start.

I just tend to get irritated when people kick off with this sort of
thing, because it's usually followed by a demand to return to
kickstarters and points ignition "So I can fix it myself", and
referances to dealers as "$tealer$hips" and similar.

Sure, bikes are less user-serviceable than they were in some respects,
but OTOH they're easier in others. Manufacturers tend to think about
where they put owner-serviceable items like the air and oil filters, for
example. Ever tried changing those on, for example, a 1970s-era Guzzi?

Fairings (not all, admittedly) come with Dzus fasteners so they can be
pulled off quickly to gain access to the oily bits.

And, of course, fettling the oily bits only needs to be done once in a
blue moon rather than every other weekend.

Sure, there are exceptions, and sometimes you wonder: "Why did they do
it like this?" but these instances are just that: the exception rather
than the rule.

 

Of course it's not "purely" to keep service in-house. I think the
thought process is more a matter of owner-ease-of-maintenance is very
low on the priority scale and an increase in shop costs are a welcome
side benefit. You can see the same attitude in auto design. More and
more, cars are not intended to be maintained by owners.
In the case I mentioned - ST1100 vs ST1300, the difference of design
intent in the 13 years between the 2 models is startling. It's obvious
that Honda went to great lengths to make the 11 accessible with
minimal tools, whereas on the 13, there is a real lack of elegance to
the way they solved many design problems. Another example - there is a
new plastic cover over the heads that must be removed to access the
oil fill hole, and they had to put a little door in the fairing to
allow that cover to be removed. The cover is strictly cosmetic and the
11 looks fine without it.
Speeding up the production line can't be a valid explanation. If that
were so, it would take _fewer_ tools and parts to assemble the bike.

 

Oh lordie. Not seen that particular abberation, but it would certainly
paint a good picture of the poster.

Not just the oily bits. The fact is that with modern bikes and cars
you can pretty much get away with almost no user intervention between
dealer services at all. Chain adjustment and lubing is really about
the only thing I ever did on any of the (new) bikes I've had since
about 1990.

Car-wise, well, the R36 has just had its first service, at 37000km,
and all[1] I've had to do is refill the screen wash and once to top up
the oil, as directed by the warning light on the dash.

The fact is that the same modern innovations that make user-servicing
seem more difficult are exactly those that also make it largely
unneccessary.

Although I do miss having a SOB to tinker with. I think I got more fun
out of messing with the 400/4 than I ever did riding it.


[1] OK, so I change the summer/winter wheels over myself twice a year,
but that's not exactly the same thing.

 

<slap>

 

_Now_ I'm getting to it? My 1st post in this thread:
"It seems as if Honda put a team of newbie engineers on the ST13 with
no supervision."

 

Not me. My shin is still sore from the old days. I just want to see
improvement, not regression. (FWIW, TOG's comment about $$ was a
reference to a certain reeky idiot.)

Sure, but I never did tinker much with my bikes, anyway. The owner
tasks are still the same - change the oil & filter, light bulbs, and
pull the wheels for tire changes. All those tasks are much harder on
the new bike. (I almost forgot how difficult it is to add air to the
rear tire now. What a screwup that was.) And checking valves is now
far more difficult. But this isn't a universal complaint. Changing a
tire on a BMW is much easier, and you never have to check valves on
Harleys.

 

I'm pretty sure that's not typical, though. And although as I said I
haven't tended to do these things on my own bikes for a couple of
decades, I'm pretty sure that in general they would not be more
difficult. OK, so on any fully-faired bike access to oil filter is
going to need some effort, but then that's not related to how modern
it is, just whether it's fully-faired or not. But wheel removal?
What's got more difficult about that?

(I almost forgot how difficult it is to add air to the

 

I'm not even sure how typical it is for Honda. It seems they treat
their fully faired bikes like cars, but I dunno 'bout the naked bikes.
It might be a matter of attitude within design departments. My beef is
really about one machine that was supposed to be an upgrade for the
other. The ST1100 was an excellent design that only needed a few
tweaks, but for every improvement, they took a couple of steps back.

To get the rear wheel off on the 13 (vs the 11,) you now have to
remove the muffler, which requires 3 different wrenches.

 

Is that all?

 

I *so* agree with this.

 

Champ wibbled forthrightly:

Whilst I agree, I've noted that the build quality of my Kawa is not as
good as my old Suzuki (no point in comparing it to a Honda, I've never
owned one).

 

Getting it back in is so much easier on a standard ZX10R if also you
use a 6mm Allen key to remove the caliper from the mounting bracket.
Three years of spannering Danny's ZX10R race bike taught me that much,
and I realised just how much easier that made life during the second
weekend racing with him.

I only need a 27mm socket to get my Versys rear wheel out too. The
front needs a 6mm Allen key, a 14mm Allen driver of some variety and a
12mm socket with wrench.

 

From memory: 18 bolts on a GL1500 - as standard.

Mine, because the pannier frame is slightly askew: 28

 

Ditto the K.

 

According to Burnt you can get the back wheel off a K100 with your fingers